Royal field artillery help needed

[stuart morgan]

hi

looking for details of

Gunner J. W ELDER SERVICE NO 77968

Don't know anything about him yet would love to

many thanks

stuart

[battiscombe]

There is not many possibilities to find out more without his records. Assuming he is not a prewar regular Gunner [which is possible with that RFA number] he will have enlisted in the early months of the war when that number was reissued... and then transferred to RGA .. he went to France with the Garrison Artillery it would seem [as on the RGA 1914-15 medal roll]. That date *could* link with 25th Division moving to France but I dont think they had any RGA units directly attached, so there is probably no connection - so he could have gone to France with a newly formed RGA battery, or as an RGA replacement, posted to a unit once he got there.

This list has the date of entry of most Siege Batteries http://www.1914-1918.net/siege-battery-index.htm,.. and none on that exact date..nor with Heavy batteries http://www.1914-1918.net/heavy-battery-index.htm .. so no obvious leads..

[kevinrowlinson]

Although I do not like to disagree with Battiscombe, I would suggest he went out with the RFA and was later officially transferred to the RGA at the end of November 1917 where he was almost certainly serving with an Anti-Aircraft Section, although he may have been attached for a time before that date. As always the medal rolls may hold the key. I would suggest that by error the cross should be against the 14-15 Star.

Kevin

[battiscombe]

Good point - as that transfer was not uncommon... although I would have thought he would appear on an RFA star roll and not an RGA roll [?] ..as he qualified for it while in RFA [is that how it works??] in which case 110th Brigade and 112th Brigade RFA have date of entry 1/9/1915 I think

[kevinrowlinson]

I think the RGA became responsible for everything as soon as a gunner was officially transferred, whether a man was coming from the same Corps or the infantry. The chances are he was medically downgraded but was still deemed healthy enough to still serve abroad.

Kevin

[Ron Clifton]

Hello battiscombe and kevrow

My understanding is that the regiment on a man's medals relate to the unit with which a man entered theatre, whereas the roll on which his name appears is that of the regiment with which he ended the war. My grandfather's medals are marked Y & L but he appears on the RE roll, having also served in the Labour Corps in between.

This would resolve the RFA/RGA dilemma.

Ron

[Ellis1918]

His MIC shows John W Elder RFA service number 77968 , RGA service number 187193

Medals - Victory , BWM and 1915 star all for RGA

Entered theatre 1 Sept 1915

If his medals are marked "Y&L" on the rim this would indicate York and Lancaster regiment surely ?

They should also show a service number

[kevinrowlinson]

His MIC shows John W Elder RFA service number 77968 , RGA service number 187193

Medals - Victory , BWM and 1915 star all for RGA

Entered theatre 1 Sept 1915

If his medals are marked "Y&L" on the rim this would indicate York and Lancaster regiment surely ?

They should also show a service number

Ron was speaking about his grandfather and he confirmed what I was clumsily trying to say. The RFA/RGA gunner first entered a theatre of war with the RFA and his number and RFA should be on the 14-15 Star, the V & BWM should be with the RGA, both rolls compiled by the RGA.

Kevin

[battiscombe]

So I think a good chance that he was with one of those RFA Brigades in 25th Division artillery if my notes on their 'date of entry' are correct.. and a later transfer to RGA AA unit is quite likely. [if a 1914 Star he would be on an RFARoll, but that seems not to be the case for 1914-15 stars] ..110th Brigade and 112th Brigade RFA then maybe?

[kenf48]

The RFA/RGA gunner first entered a theatre of war with the RFA and his number and RFA should be on the 14-15 Star, the V & BWM should be with the RGA, both rolls compiled by the RGA.

Kevin

Sorry to be pedantic but as the asterisk on the mic notes he qualified for all his campaign medals when serving in the RFA, i.e. when he he first went to France on the 1st September. The medals would all be inscribed to the RFA.

At some point he transferred to the RGA (and served either in the UK or overseas we can't tell from the card or number) and as his last unit they were responsible for the administration of the issue of medals and therefore, as you say, he appears on their Rolls and also incidentally the only reason the RGA is noted on the card.

There is a very slim chance his original RFA Brigade is shown on the Rolls, if at all most likely on the 14-15 Star Roll which was compiled earlier, instructions were issued on 24th December 1918 so we know, with some certainty he was serving with the RGA then. By the time the other Roll was submitted there is a strong probability he was discharged.

The 25th Division did not go overseas until much later in September, either the 22nd or the 24th are better candidates but it's all a bit hit and miss.

Ken

[kevinrowlinson]

Sorry to be pedantic but as the asterisk on the mic notes he qualified for all his campaign medals when serving in the RFA, i.e. when he he first went to France on the 1st September. The medals would all be inscribed to the RFA.

At some point he transferred to the RGA (and served either in the UK or overseas we can't tell from the card or number) and as his last unit they were responsible for the administration of the issue of medals and therefore, as you say, he appears on their Rolls and also incidentally the only reason the RGA is noted on the card.

There is a very slim chance his original RFA Brigade is shown on the Rolls, if at all most likely on the 14-15 Star Roll which was compiled earlier, instructions were issued on 24th December 1918 so we know, with some certainty he was serving with the RGA then. By the time the other Roll was submitted there is a strong probability he was discharged.

The 25th Division did not go overseas until much later in September, either the 22nd or the 24th are better candidates but it's all a bit hit and miss.

Ken

Having looked at many thousands of RGA gunners service records and recording enlistment dates, transfers and units, I will stick with what I said in post 3 regards transfer date, and the most likely type of unit he would have been serving with. ( I could even guess at the unit, but that would be a guess)

Yes I was possibly wrong about the V & BWM. Apart from the star medals I believe that the mans highest rank and particulars as at first disembarkation into a theatre of war were on the V & BWM. It does beg the question though if a man had changed regiments and risen in the ranks his BWM would be engraved with the highest rank but show his original regiment then, even if he never attained that rank in that regiment. Seems a bit strange really.

There are no units shown on the medal rolls. A friend has had a look.

Apart from all that it would appear that Stuart isn't really that interested anyway.

Kevin

Kevin

[kenf48]

Kevin

I wasn't questioning the transfer date, or unit simply the interpretation of the evidence on the card, unfortunately I would think Stuart is pretty confused by now.

Ken

[stuart morgan]

hi

just a little confused but amased with all the great knowledge here,i have truely come across a great forum with a wealth of expert in this field.

I have been collecting militaria for 10 years but never gone into the history of the person who one the medals.

finding out the history of what he did and when,is outstanding when you shot off in different directions and find more things that you didn't realise were there.

many thanks to everyone,I have got alot of groups to research and will put this to all the members again.

stuart