Appendices to War Diaries

[Dave Phillips]

Having downloaded 2RWR War Diary and researching the attack of 9.10.17 there are references to Appendices and marked maps.

Are these available in the original War Diary folders or elsewhere? Or have they been 'weeded' at some point?

If they are available would the Museum in Warwick hold them?

Dave

[Terry_Reeves]

Dave

They are very likely to be in the original at Kew, and you might have to argue a bit to get the diary, but don't take no for an answer. It might be worth giving the museum at Warwick a ring just in case they kept copies of them as well.

TR

[Dave Phillips]

Thanks Terry

Is it still possible to request copies from the diaries without actually visiting NA?

Or do they not do this since they have digitised most of the diaries?

Dave

[sotonmate]

Dave

I too have noticed this. A few visits to Kew ago I was reading a digital Diary on a computer and noted in the right side column a ref to an Appendix,which would ordinarily have been copied from that month's original pages. It wasn't. I asked at Enquiries about this and they said that all pages are copied . As I had run out of time I was unable to follow this through.

At one time before this,and on a different mission,I was able to apply to Enquiries for a sight of the original Diary on the day and was able to see the Appendices.

[Dave Phillips]

I have emailed the museum in Warwick and will attempt to contact NA for clarification.

Dave

[Liz in Eastbourne]

i had this problem when researching the 21st Bn KRRC. The account of their participation in two major actions on the Somme was very thin in the war diary and there were evidently seven appendices. These were not in the digitised version.

I had to explain at Kew why I wanted to look at the originals, and they let me look, but there were no appendices in the box. I was very disappointed and went back to the desk, but the member of staff said this was not surprising as material had often been weeded out by the Official Historian. It was just possible they might show up somewhere else but...

EDIT This post related what happened.

Liz

[David_Underdown]

The current exercise has digitised everything that was in the original box (which wasn't necessarily true of the previous versions - everything was also re-sorted prior to digitisation). Unfortunately the Official Historians remvoed a lot of material they regarded as being duplicates (so you will probabaly only find one version of a given op order, even though several battalions may have originally included it in their diary) long before material was transferred to what was then the Public Record Office. Some material originally deemed as more sensitive for whatever reason (often because it contains material pertaining to courts martial) was also separated and are in WO 154. Some larger maps and plans were extracted into WO 153 so that the material could be stored in proper map presses, rather than being folded into the archival boxes generally used for WO 95.

[seaforths]

i had this problem when researching the 21st Bn KRRC. The account of their participation in two major actions on the Somme was very thin in the war diary and there were evidently seven appendices. These were not in the digitised version.

I had to explain at Kew why I wanted to look at the originals, and they let me look, but there were no appendices in the box. I was very disappointed and went back to the desk, but the member of staff said this was not surprising as material had often been weeded out by the Official Historian. It was just possible they might show up somewhere else but...

EDIT This post related what happened.

Liz

I found this too but what I discovered was that the appendices often referred to material that had also been filed at Bde. or Div. level and they were in those boxes. I always bear in mind the advice that I think is attributable to Chris Baker - if you don't find what you are looking for, go up a level in the hierarchy until you do. I've often found this to be the case and I have also gone into WO 154 files where the information is sensitive, with mixed success.

Hope this helps.

[stiletto_33853]

The current exercise has digitised everything that was in the original box (which wasn't necessarily true of the previous versions

David, and whose decision was this?? given that the NA were charging £3.50 for one month when they were first released. We were then refused permission to see the original diary when a lot of us knew that there was a lot of material missing.

Andy.

[David_Underdown]

I don't know I'm afraid. I think the previous digitised versions were created from microfilm (hence the reason they were black and white), so what was in and out was down to what was originally filmed back in the dim and distant.

[Dave Phillips]

Thank you all for the advice. I will have to go up the hierarchy and see what I can find.

[Dave Phillips]

Brilliant went up to 22 Bde level and found all of the orders and maps.

Thanks all

[seaforths]

Brilliant went up to 22 Bde level and found all of the orders and maps.

Thanks all

Great stuff! I have found that to be very often the case although sometimes on occasion I've found it at div. level.

[Muerrisch]

Many years ago I caused Kew to photocopy the entire 2nd RWF WD and sell it to me. Re-mortgage job, nearly. Count your blessings, less than £4 is CHEAP!

There are no maps and no appendices in the material sent.

And there are none in WD on line either.

Win some, lose some.

[Dave Phillips]

Yes some people do moan about the cost. I also remember having to spend a small fortune and wait some time to get WD from Kew.

Having to travel to Kew and photo or transcribe WD's was just as time consuming.

The internet age is making my research so much easier and the odd £3 or so on the way is nothing.

I'm with you Grumpy research is cheaper and easier.

The best bit is this Forum where people are happy to share what they have paid for.

Dave

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I found this too but what I discovered was that the appendices often referred to material that had also been filed at Bde. or Div. level and they were in those boxes. I always bear in mind the advice that I think is attributable to Chris Baker - if you don't find what you are looking for, go up a level in the hierarchy until you do. I've often found this to be the case and I have also gone into WO 154 files where the information is sensitive, with mixed success.

Hope this helps.

It does, and thanks to you and others on this thread I shall have another go at finding them next time I go to Kew, just in case. I ought at least to look in the files I was recommended to try as a last resort, although the staff member wasn't encouraging. Not the NA's fault if the OH chucked them out, of course.

Thanks.

Liz

[Chris_Baker]

I don't think that material would have been disposed of by the Official Historian. It is common practice in government departments to reduce material that is to be stored by "weeding" before it goes into storage.

[Muerrisch]

Conducted [if done properly] by a Board of Survey.

Not a welcome job!

[David_Underdown]

William Spencer certainly attributes the loss of Part II orders to the Official Historian unfortunately his most recent talk on the topic, where he addresed the issue of material that was dipsosed of, is not (yet?) available as a podcast.