Guided by the Knowledgeable on this Forum

[divadnosae]

As an almost total novice in WW1 history except for a recent learning curve from a lot you guys on this forum, I have always wanted to visit France and pay my respects. I am staying near Albert in August for 5 days. I have a couple of personal walkabouts to do, but your guys who have a greater knowledge than I. Could I perhaps ask you to suggest on a scale of one to ten "must do on a 1st visit " that I could do when there and take in the enormity of the Somme battles. I know I could scour the web but this is a specialist forum and you guys have an incredible amount of info between you. Thought I would ask here first.

I have been looking at Google map for a few days and i cant believe how many cemeteries there are. I will be looking at Albert, LOCHNAGAR CRATER and Theipval. Vimmy Ridge memorial looks like a can do on the way down.

No easy way of asking this and not totally happy with my 1- 2 - 10 question, but said with respect. I will be on a limited visit so aware I cant see everything.

Thank u in advance.

[Guest]

I would think one of the many, might be The Butte de Warlencourt

Mike

The Butte de Warlencourt.kmz

[johnboy]

Cover as much of the area that you think your grandfather was in. Take plenty of pics.

See if you can get hold of pics taken during the war and compare them with the scene today.

[divadnosae]

Cover as much of the area that you think your grandfather was in. Take plenty of pics.

See if you can get hold of pics taken during the war and compare them with the scene today.

Hoping to take as much camera equip as I can. I would like to do some 360 virtual tours if I can. Thank U

I would think one of the many, might be The Butte de Warlencourt

Mike

Cheers Mike. Never heard of this one but will take your advice and look it up. Got plenty of reading to do. This may be a daft question but is "no mans land " applied to any large area in a battlefield or is there only one "No mans land" ??

[johnboy]

No mans land was the ground between the opposing armies. Each side normally had a barbed wire fence some way in front of their front line trenches.

The ground between the fences was no mans land. That is why you will see mentioned in war diaries of soldiers checking the wire, normally at night, The importance being to hold the enemy back and also check on the condition of the fence especially after a bout of shelling. In some places the trenches might have been only 50 yds apart so their security and condition was vital.

[divadnosae]

No mans land was the ground between the opposing armies. Each side normally had a barbed wire fence some way in front of their front line trenches.

The ground between the fences was no mans land. That is why you will see mentioned in war diaries of soldiers checking the wire, normally at night, The importance being to hold the enemy back and also check on the condition of the fence especially after a bout of shelling. In some places the trenches might have been only 50 yds apart so their security and condition was vital.

Looking to see some original trenches if I can. My daughter is a "new" teacher and wants to share her findings with the kids. Will deffo be looking at Montauban areas.

[divadnosae]

No mans land was the ground between the opposing armies. Each side normally had a barbed wire fence some way in front of their front line trenches.

The ground between the fences was no mans land. That is why you will see mentioned in war diaries of soldiers checking the wire, normally at night, The importance being to hold the enemy back and also check on the condition of the fence especially after a bout of shelling. In some places the trenches might have been only 50 yds apart so their security and condition was vital.

Looking at 18 Eastern and all the battles it took part in, I am surprised my GU Arthur lasted until 21st March 18. Was there a life expectancy of a solider at the Somme? Also, I presume the March offensive is also known as the Battle of St Quentin? I have just bought The Kaisers battle. but not had time to read it yet.

[chloeflorence]

I would not miss 'Mansell Copse', where the Devonshires were buried in their own trench. Lt Hodgson is buried there, and if you decide to go - get a copy of his poem "Before Action" first, It is thought to have been written a day or two before his death. You can read it at his grave. Mansell Copse is on the D938 from Albert near Fricourt/Mametz.

Jim.

[gilbo139]

Sheffield memorial park and immediate surrounding area at the north end of the line, often overlooked but very moving, I,m also with Jim on Mansell Copse but read the story behind it first.

Colin

[Keith Iles]

Try Newfoundland memorial Park for an idea of what the trenches were like and the distance between the lines, also Delville Wood where there is a museum at the back of the Memorial with static displays of relics, arms and photo's etc and if in the area there is High Wood, Trones Wood, the site of Waterlot farm and to the right of Guillemont Cemetery the site of Maltzhorn farm and the area where Noel Chavasse won one of his two VC's.

[divadnosae]

Try Newfoundland memorial Park for an idea of what the trenches were like and the distance between the lines, also Delville Wood where there is a museum at the back of the Memorial with static displays of relics, arms and photo's etc and if in the area there is High Wood, Trones Wood, the site of Waterlot farm and to the right of Guillemont Cemetery the site of Maltzhorn farm and the area where Noel Chavasse won one of his two VC's.

Thank u

Sheffield memorial park and immediate surrounding area at the north end of the line, often overlooked but very moving, I,m also with Jim on Mansell Copse but read the story behind it first.

Colin

Thank u

I would not miss 'Mansell Copse', where the Devonshires were buried in their own trench. Lt Hodgson is buried there, and if you decide to go - get a copy of his poem "Before Action" first, It is thought to have been written a day or two before his death. You can read it at his grave. Mansell Copse is on the D938 from Albert near Fricourt/Mametz.

Jim.

Thank u

[Chris_Baker]

Here is a top ten for you. I am assuming that you will have read up enough to make sense of these locations. It's a good idea to take plenty of battle, trench and modern maps too. I have left the Thiepval memorial and visitor centre, Lochnagar and Albert from my list as you are already doing those. You'll get plenty of 'enormity' from the cemeteries and memorials you will pass by and no doubt stop at as you go along.

1. Drive the length of the advance of the Manchester and Liverpool pals battalions on 1 July, from Maricourt to Montauban and beyond. It will astonish you.

2. Treated as a single place to go, a bit of cheating but I guess I am allowed: the Devonshire Trench cemetery (to see the area of the attack on Mametz) and the German machine gun position at the Mametz Shrine.

3. The 18th (Eastern) Division memorial at Thiepval to see the area of the attack of the Ulster Division from Thiepval Wood to the Schwaben redoubt.

4. The Welsh Divisional memorial facing Mametz Wood.

5. Guillemont Road Cemetery for the view across to Delville Wood and Ginchy.

6. Delville Wood South African memorial and museum.

7. Caterpillar Valley Cemetery, for the view across to High Wood and back towards Montauban (for an appreciation of just how important these two locations were).

8. The 1st Australian Divisional memorial at Pozieres, for the views to Thiepval and to the south.

9. The New Zealand Memorial near Flers for the views of High Wood, Delville Wood, the Pozieres high ground and the Morval and Transloy areas.

10. The Historial museum in Peronne.

[David Filsell]

En route, by car, Vimy

[Stebie9173]

While at No. 5 on Chris Baker's list - the other 18th Division memorial on the Somme at the southern edge of Trones Wood is only yards away.

For a first visit I would try and fit Newfoundland Park in.

Steve.

[divadnosae]

Thanks to all.

I will do Vimy on the way down. The place I am staying at also does tours by a certified/qualified historian so will probably take that up too It may be quicker covering more ground with someone in the know. Thiepval is a must. Cheers

[Chris_Baker]

What is a certified/qualified historian?

[gilbo139]

I remain in awe of the experts on this forum and very helpful some are .......however there is a lot to be said for reading about places you intend to visit and then doing it yourself..........after a few visits you feel you become a 'certified historian'..........my Grandkids think I,m an expert anyway.......I know I,m not .........

[divadnosae]

What is a certified/qualified historian?

I don't know but he seems qualified, Its me that's certified.

[divadnosae]

I remain in awe of the experts on this forum and very helpful some are .......however there is a lot to be said for reading about places you intend to visit and then doing it yourself..........after a few visits you feel you become a 'certified historian'..........my Grandkids think I,m an expert anyway.......I know I,m not .........

You lot on here have a far greater knowledge about WW1 than I will ever do. My brain is already hurting from days of looking at website, articles, diaries, a, b and c companies, brigades, battalions, communication trenches, no mans lands, tunneling, woods, ridges etc etc.....oh.........and bullets and bombs. We are all good at something but this subject baffles me. I need it explaining Janet and john style. Some real talent on here. Wish I could take all of you with me to point at stuff and tell me what happens and where. Trouble is my beer bill will go through the roof...................I bet a lot of you are ex military too?

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

What is a certified/qualified historian?

One of the self-anointed

Tom

[divadnosae]

One of the self-anointed

Tom

Is this like The Federation of Master Builders Tom?

[Ghazala]

Across from Thiepval you will find the Lonsdale Cemetery, Dorset Memorial at the front of the footpath. In the woods behind the cemetery are original trenches. A good walk is to go on down through the woods to Blighty Valley Cemetery then up through Authille and back to Thiepval.

[Ghazala]

The Thiepval Visitor Centre is now open. Vincent will be there to welcome you from 9.30am.

[centurion]

No mans land was the ground between the opposing armies. Each side normally had a barbed wire fence some way in front of their front line trenches.

The ground between the fences was no mans land. That is why you will see mentioned in war diaries of soldiers checking the wire, normally at night, The importance being to hold the enemy back and also check on the condition of the fence especially after a bout of shelling. In some places the trenches might have been only 50 yds apart so their security and condition was vital.

I think it is more accurately the territory between the two front lines and the wire itself is in no mans land. The term predates WW1 and barbed wire (and continuous trench systems for that matter). There is an account of a fox hunt during the Peninsular War in Spain when the fox with the pack behind it ran into no mans land between Wellington and Massena's armies and both French and British cheered on the hunts men as they rode between the two armies. It's width could vary enormously and sometimes it could be anything up to a mile across and in others even closer than 50 yards (so that grenades could actually be hurled between the trenches). Barbed wire was sometimes laid in belts some way distant from the trenches (so that attackers could not throw grenades into the trenches from it). The Germans were very good at placing it in dips in the ground so it was rather like a ha ha and you couldn't always see if the artillery had cut it until you reached it. My grandfathers battalion found this to their cost in 1916 when getting through uncut wire cost them 50% casualties from machine gun fire whilst it was being cut.

[johnboy]

I still think that no mans land was between the wires. ie British trench, wire fence. To be able to put the fence up the ground in front of the trench to the wire was considered British. The enemy wire to their trench was enemy ground.