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Remembered Today:

South Wales Borders in Gallipoli


rothweb

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My Great Uncle George Warren served as a Private with the 2nd. Battalion South Wales Borderers (Reg. No. 3/ 24825 although on his Medal Roll Index Card he only has the number 24825) in Gallipoli. He was killed in Action (shot by a sniper) 2nd. December 1915 and is buried at Skew Cemetry. (Specialo Memorial B 16). He originally signed up with the RAMC Reg. No. 43997 before transferring to SWB. Unfortunately his Service record nolonger exists. According to his Medal Roll Index Card he arrived in area 2b Gallipoli 26th August 1915. According to the 2nd. B SWB War Diary 1Sgt. and 10 OR arrived in Suvla 8.30 pm the remains of a draft of 83 who came out on the Royal Edward, which was torpedoed and sank 13th. August on ist way from Alexandria to Lemnos. The Name of the Sergeant was most likely Thomas Charles Hadley, Reg. No. 12232 since his medal roll index Card also says he arrived 26th. August in Gallipoli. He was killed in Action 4th. September 1915 and is buried at Suvla Military Cemetry Plot II A 17. One of the other ORs was most likely L.Cpl. Arthur Harris Reg. No. 19599 who also arrived 26th. August according to his medal roll index card. He was also killed in Action 21.09.1915 and is also buried at Suvla Plot II A 8. I am now trying to fill in the gaps missing through the loss of the Service record of my great uncle. Can anyone help with the following questions:

1. Was there a procedure for transferring from RAMC to SWB or anyother infantry Regiment? The RAMC Museum has no Details.

2. Apparently 3/ in his Reg. No. indicates that he initially transferred to the 3rd. Battalion, a Special reserve Training Battalion stationed from 6th. June 1915 at Sniggery Camp, Hightown Liverpool, as part of the Mersey Garrison. Does anyone have relatives who did the same or Details of the 3rd. Battalion recruiting and Training procedure? My great uncle was Born and lived at Edgworth, near Bolton in Lancashire. He did his RAMC Training in Aldershot (my grandfather was the last Person in the Family to see him alive ca. Feb. March 1915 at the Aldershot Training camp). He was most likely with the East Lancashire Ambulance Corp, a great number of whom went out to Gallipoli. Coming from the Bolton area it would also make sense that he transferred to the 3rd. Bat SWB at Liverpool.

3. Before going to Gallipoli he was most likely sent to IBD Etaples for Training. Does any one know which IBD this would be for the SWB?

4. Assuming he travelled to Gallipoli with the Royal Edward (for which I am still trying to find final proof) this embarked from Devonport 30th. July 1915, arriving in Alexandria 11th. August. The troops boarded the ship 29th. July. If George was in Etaples this would mean he was transferred with the other recruits ca. 28th July from Etaples. Does any one have Details of the IBD War Diary of SWB showing that a draft of 83 recruits left Etaples ca. 28th. July for Devonport?

Hoping some one can answer at least some of the questions. Best Regards Brian

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Point one, could be any reason. RAMC now full, RAMC not sutied for your relative etc. May not of been a voluntary transfer.

Other points I will ask at the Musuem in Brecon on Friday. Doing research for another member so adding this to the list won't harm.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Brian,

I read your topic with great interest. My Gt Grandfather - Pte. William Henry Hodges (10857) was also in the 2nd Batt. South Wales Borderes. He originally served in China

from 1912-1914. His batt. were involved in the battle for the port of Tsingtao, Tiensin, North China. On 12th January the Batt. returned to Devonport, England.

The batt.was then sent to Gallipoli, in March 1915, were he was wounded on 2nd May. Somehow he was returned to England and ended up in Liverpool

around Aug 1915. I have often wondered how this came to be. I am aware that the 3rd Batt. SWB were stationed at Highfield outside Liverpool and wondered

if he could have been transferred there (possibly on MS Aquitania who's home port was Liverpool) in order to convalesce. I am trying to find out if there were any ship

records kept of wounded soldiers being transferred back to Blighty. During his time in Liverpool (Less than 12 months) he met & married my Grandmother on 16th Feb 1916.

By the time their Daughter was born, in November 1916, He had been re-assigned to the 1st Batt.SWB and was in Flanders. He was KIA on 10th Nov 1917 near Valour Farm

on the Goudberg Spur. Sadly, he never got to meet his daughter.

Alan.

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I am aware that the 3rd Batt. SWB were stationed at Highfield outside Liverpool and wondered if he could have been transferred there (possibly on MS Aquitania who's home port was Liverpool) in order to convalesc

Quite possibly he was sent to whichever hospital had spare capacity (although I believe they tended to send men to the same region of the country as the battalion was from, if possible). Men were often attached to UK based battalions of the same regiment but this was sometimes just a paper exercise for admin purposes.

Craig

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  • 3 years later...

I had the opportunity of going through a  box of old family photographs (not made the connection yet) yesterday and came across a photograph postcard of a soldier in WW1.  On the back the following is written:

 

Pte Jonah Morris,

Australian General Hospital Ward 6,

B.E.J,  (not sure if this could be B.E.F.)

France

 

 

and on the address part it is written:

 

Pte Jonah Morris 32056

B.Coy. No. 8 Hut

3ch Batt S.W.B.

Snigggery near Hightown

Liverpool

 

Would I be correct in thinking that he was injured and was convalescing here?  

What does the abbreviation mean?

 

I have looked for him on Ancestry and Find my Past but can't find him anywhere.

Thank you in advance

Irene

 

 

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Welcome to the forum Irene,

medals are named to Josiah Morris 32050 South Wales Borderers. I would concur with BEF - British Expeditionary Force and yes likely to be convalescing at the AGH. 

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Irene

 

As JD points out the Medal Card/Medal Roll for this 32056 number is Josiah and not Jonah. This might affect searches you make to connect him to your family.

 

Regarding convalescing. If by  'here' you mean Liverpool then that address for him, given it's written in full,  looks like an actual posting to the 3rd Bn which was based at Hightown from June 1915. It is more likely to be where he was trained before going to France. 

Edited by Hywyn
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I have just bought 3 welsh trios,2 who landed and fought at gallipoli

PTE A.JONES reg 4400 4th batt welsh reg,landed at Suvla bay evening  8th August

PTE W.PRICE reg 2629 1/5TH batt Welsh reg landed at Suvla Bay 9th August 

luckly both survived the war  and died in wales 

:poppy::poppy:

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  • 2 years later...
On 15/04/2014 at 13:43, hal90000 said:

Hi Brian,

I read your topic with great interest. My Gt Grandfather - Pte. William Henry Hodges (10857) was also in the 2nd Batt. South Wales Borderes. He originally served in China

from 1912-1914. His batt. were involved in the battle for the port of Tsingtao, Tiensin, North China. On 12th January the Batt. returned to Devonport, England.

The batt.was then sent to Gallipoli, in March 1915, were he was wounded on 2nd May. Somehow he was returned to England and ended up in Liverpool

around Aug 1915. I have often wondered how this came to be. I am aware that the 3rd Batt. SWB were stationed at Highfield outside Liverpool and wondered

if he could have been transferred there (possibly on MS Aquitania who's home port was Liverpool) in order to convalesce. I am trying to find out if there were any ship

records kept of wounded soldiers being transferred back to Blighty. During his time in Liverpool (Less than 12 months) he met & married my Grandmother on 16th Feb 1916.

By the time their Daughter was born, in November 1916, He had been re-assigned to the 1st Batt.SWB and was in Flanders. He was KIA on 10th Nov 1917 near Valour Farm

on the Goudberg Spur. Sadly, he never got to meet his daughter.

Alan.


Hi,
I came across this old thread whilst looking for something else

From what I have seen of cross-referencing the medal rolls, where they list successive units for an individual - very useful if the service record has not survived - many of the men who landed at Gallipoli with the 2nd Battalion had seen action at Tsingtao. In some instances, there were Old Contemptibles who were used to bolster the 2nd Battalion, too, being brought up to War Establishment upon returning to the UK in January 1915. Now and again the medal roll reveals a soldier who was part of the original 2nd Battalion that landed, for whom Gallipoli was their first engagement, one such example being 11110 Vincent Parker, who enlisted in January 1914.

Regardless of his port of entry, he would have been sent to Liverpool upon being discharged from hospital, and to perform less demanding activities with the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion at Sniggery Camp, until such time that he was fit enough to return to the front line with a subsequent draft of reinforcements.

I did wonder if he might appear on the 1911 Census with the regiment, but his service number indicates that he enlisted in late July 1912.

The following thread does speak of the content of the war diary in a positive manner, where the OP asks about the detail therein


If you cannot get to Kew to view the diary, I believe a transcribed version is available via Ancestry. Up to now, I have not looked into Gallipoli in any depth, but that could be a future project to run with, and Rodney Ashworth's book could be just the ticket.

Viewing the diary for the 1st Battalion is easier done, but the 1st Battalion is out of scope for this thread.


 

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GrenPen,

  The war diary for 2nd S.W.B. in Gallipoli has been transcribed and is available on Kindle. If you don't have Kindle you can download a free Kindle reader, to read it on your computer. It is very easy to search, like a word document, and is available here  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gallipoli-Diary-South-Borderers-Diaries-ebook/dp/B01M7RC97B   for £2.99.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

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Thanks Alf, I had a brain **** when I posted earlier, as it should have read 'I believe a transcribed version is available via AncestryAmazon' I am glad that you have found it easy to text search.

Best wishes
GP

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15 hours ago, alf mcm said:

GrenPen,

  The war diary for 2nd S.W.B. in Gallipoli has been transcribed and is available on Kindle. If you don't have Kindle you can download a free Kindle reader, to read it on your computer. It is very easy to search, like a word document, and is available here  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gallipoli-Diary-South-Borderers-Diaries-ebook/dp/B01M7RC97B   for £2.99.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

 

If anyone does download it I should like to know if my grand-father, William Pope, figures anywhere in it.

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1 hour ago, Jim Strawbridge said:

f anyone does download it I should like to know if my grand-father, William Pope, figures anywhere in it

 

The diary mentions only 10 (if I have counted correctly) ORs by name.  William Pope is not among these.

 

Max

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Thank you, Max. Although he was a Devon lad he somehow was in the South Wales Borderers. I do not know exactly which Battalion he was in but I know that he fought the Turks. It doesn't help that there were at least three William Pope's in the SWB and that the service records are lost.

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Jim

At a quick run through the possibles in medal rolls I can't spot any with 2nd Bn service. 4th Bn also served Gallipoli/Egypt/Mespot and 26874 William John Pope served with them. He has pension card with an address of Hoskins, Payhembury Olly ? St Marys, Devon. Born 1891. Married. Disch 16 10 1916. Claim = VDH. 

Edited by Hywyn
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13 hours ago, Hywyn said:

Jim

At a quick run through the possibles in medal rolls I can't spot any with 2nd Bn service. 4th Bn also served Gallipoli/Egypt/Mespot and 26874 William John Pope served with them. He has pension card with an address of Hoskins, Payhembury Olly ? St Marys, Devon. Born 1891. Married. Disch 16 10 1916. Claim = VDH. 

 

That's him. Brilliant, thank you.

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  • 11 months later...

The aforementioned diary, and a large number of others pertaining to Gallipoli, were transcribed and made available for a small fee via Amazon by the late Martin Gillott, a former GWF contributor.

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  • 2 years later...
On 29/01/2014 at 19:29, rothweb said:

My Great Uncle George Warren served as a Private with the 2nd. Battalion South Wales Borderers (Reg. No. 3/ 24825 although on his Medal Roll Index Card he only has the number 24825) in Gallipoli. He was killed in Action (shot by a sniper) 2nd. December 1915 and is buried at Skew Cemetry. (Specialo Memorial B 16). He originally signed up with the RAMC Reg. No. 43997 before transferring to SWB. Unfortunately his Service record nolonger exists...

2. Apparently 3/ in his Reg. No. indicates that he initially transferred to the 3rd. Battalion

 

Interesting to see the "3/" prefix on the SDGW and CWGC documents
 

Quote

On 18th May 1915, Army Council Instruction 144 attempted to deal with the problem of duplicate numbering by instructing that where such duplication existed, a soldier's regimental number would be prefixed by the number of the battalion in which he was serving thus, for example, 5/3492

The source of the above is Paul Nixon's excellent blog
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/army-number-prefixes.html


This is very interesting, insofar as he had already enlisted in the RAMC, so when he was transferred to the South Wales Borderers, it was decided to put him in the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, which makes sense. This was a pool of men, irrespective of enlisting under Regular terms (like ) or Special Reserve terms of service, from which subsequent drafts of reinforcements could be assembled.
 

On 29/01/2014 at 19:29, rothweb said:

3. Before going to Gallipoli he was most likely sent to IBD Etaples for Training. [K_H_B: Strongly disagree.]

1. Was there a procedure for transferring from RAMC to SWB or anyother infantry Regiment? The RAMC Museum has no Details.

Had it been the case that he had been sent to Etaples in France, then he would have stayed in that theatre of war. He would not have been sent to undergo training in France, and to thereafter go to Gallipoli.

There is a surviving service record for George Thomasson. He enlisted and was posted to the Royal Army Medical Corps, and allocated service number 50776. He enlisted as a Regular, under the short terms of service as laid out in Army Order 296 August 1914. He was stationed at Bolton.

On 1 June 1915 he was transferred to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, South Wales Borderers, and allocated service number 24833. In accordance with the aforementioned ACI 144 of May 1915, the RAMC number is struck through and "3/24833" is written on the attestation of his service record. Given the proximity of the battalion in the Mersey garrison to Bolton, it would explain why that particular unit accepted these former RAMC men. It seems likely that Thomasson and Warren were transferred at the same time. At no point did Thomasson leave the UK.

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Whilst there is scope for confusion with regard to 10,000 series service numbers for the South Wales Borderers, and whether the soldier concerned enlisted under Regular or Special Reserve terms of service, those men with 20,000 series service numbers are in a number sequence unique to regular enlistments in the South Wales Borderers.

Interesting to see the following fatalities who had come via the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, then joined the 2nd Battalion in Gallipoli
 

3/19901' Thomas Henry George Lance Corporal 26/12/1915 TWELVE TREE COPSE CEMETERY
3/19989' James Hurley Private 03/11/1915 SKEW BRIDGE CEMETERY
3/24825' George Warren Private 02/12/1915 SKEW BRIDGE CEMETERY
3/25052' Oliver George Watkins Private 18/08/1915 HILL 10 CEMETERY


Likewise, interesting to see a fatality in "A" Company, 2nd Battalion who had been in the 9th (Reserve) Battalion too.
 

9/13380' Llewellyn Jenkins Private 21/11/1915 SKEW BRIDGE CEMETERY
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