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Remembered Today:

“Time Expired” - could Territorial Force Soldiers Leave the Army durin


Timbob1001

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Hi all

An obscure question - could a TF soldier simply leave the British Army at any point during the Great War when he was “Time Expired” i.e. when his formal term of military service in the Territorial Force had ended?

Thanks

Tim

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As far as I am aware, yes he could, but post 1916 he `would then be liable for conscription if he met the required standards. Also believe that during WW2 at least territorials could not leave until the "emergency" was over. Ralph.

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As far as I am aware, yes he could, but post 1916 he `would then be liable for conscription if he met the required standards.

And then liable for service overseas even if he hadn't taken the overseas service oath

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Thanks - makes sense in the case of a chap I am looking at who was Farrier in the North Somerset Yeomanry and who left early in 1915. I suspect since he was a blacksmith he enjoyed an exemption from military service during the rest of the war.

Tim

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It wasn't just the TF but regulars could also leave at the end of their terms. The obligation was a legal contract and at the end of it, the Army was obliged to let them go. I'm not sure about the TF but regulars did have their terms extended by a yeasr due to being on active service.I've also seen in the SWB rolls men who were discharged as time expired but then failed the medical under the MSA.

Particularly in the early days, many seemed to decide to stay with their mates as well as the patriotic reasons why newcomers enlisted.

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Given that time expired regulars went onto the reserve for a number of years and the reserve could be called back to the colours in time of war it would seem some what academic in their case. If I'm interpreting the questions and answers in the Commons correctly any time expired man under 41 Regular or Territorial was still liable to service under the MSA no matter how long he'd been out of the forces but was treated as if being recalled from the reserve insofar as his rank/seniority was concerned.

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I'm not sure about the TF but regulars did have their terms extended by a yeasr due to being on active service.I've also seen in the SWB rolls men who were discharged as time expired but then failed the medical under the MSA.

The 12 month war time service extension also applied to the T.F.

Craig

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Thanks - makes sense in the case of a chap I am looking at who was Farrier in the North Somerset Yeomanry and who left early in 1915. I suspect since he was a blacksmith he enjoyed an exemption from military service during the rest of the war.

Tim

If TF had a years extension on length of service in Wartime (see post 7) then he couldn't have left as Time Expired early in 1915

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Yes, a time expired man could leave but, as mentioned, might be liable for conscription. In which case he would start his new service as a private. On the other hand, he extended his service with his unit, he would get several weeks leave (8 ?) and then be able to return in the rank he held.

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Yes, a time expired man could leave but, as mentioned, might be liable for conscription. In which case he would start his new service as a private.

Not according the question and answer in the commons- from Hansard - questions on the MSA

Mr. BOYTON asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if a time-expired non-commissioned officer of a Territorial regiment on being recalled to the Colours will retain the rank with which he was discharged, or, if not, would it be the case if he were called up from Section D of the Reserve?
Mr. TENNANT The intention is to treat ex-non-commissioned officers who are recalled to the Colours from civilian life in exactly the same way as they would have been treated if they had been recalled from the Reserve, i.e., they will rejoin with the rank they held on discharge. Time-expired men will as far as possible be sent to their former regiment or corps, but no guarantee of this can be given
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Great stuff!

Interestingly the case I have is of two brothers - both Farriers/Blacksmiths who appeared to have joined together and both left on 3rd MArch 1916 time expired. Neither was recalled to the colours - presumably their work as local Blacksmiths supporting local agriculture was deemed more important.

Tim

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Interestingly the case I have is of two brothers - both Farriers/Blacksmiths who appeared to have joined together and both left on 3rd MArch 1916 time expired. Neither was recalled to the colours - presumably their work as local Blacksmiths supporting local agriculture was deemed more important.

Assuming they were within the remit of the MSA then they would have needed to apply for exemption but the jobs would certainly have helped their cause.

Craig

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Seems to be another case of political 'weasel words', the guiltly word in this case being 'intention'. Whilst very few of the 1/4th King's Own who left as 'time expired' were conscripted as such a large percentage of them were returning to jobs in munition industries, I do have two NCOs who were conscripted (a Cpl and a Sgt) and both rejoined as Pte.

Not according the question and answer in the commons- from Hansard - questions on the MSA

Mr. BOYTON asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if a time-expired non-commissioned officer of a Territorial regiment on being recalled to the Colours will retain the rank with which he was discharged, or, if not, would it be the case if he were called up from Section D of the Reserve?
Mr. TENNANT The intention is to treat ex-non-commissioned officers who are recalled to the Colours from civilian life in exactly the same way as they would have been treated if they had been recalled from the Reserve, i.e., they will rejoin with the rank they held on discharge. Time-expired men will as far as possible be sent to their former regiment or corps, but no guarantee of this can be given
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Did the mans record get taken into account? Do your time, not very good at a soldier and remain private all the time. On call up would the army say "sorry don't want this chap anymore". I mean the greymen that plodded along with a a large company record at the end of it not those doing major crime to get thrown out of the army.

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As I understand it a soldier who chose to leave the Army at the end of his engagement was liable to conscription after the Military Service Act came into force.

An Army Routine Order (ARO202 1916) effectivlyprevented men from taking their discharge post MS act unless thet were over 41yrs old, had completed at least 12 years service including the extra year imposed for the war. This allowed soldiers to take their discharge and pension post MS act. I have not seen the full text of this ARO but presume it related to Regullar soldiers only because otherwise any TF soldier completing his service and over 41would not beable to take their discharge, lessthan 12 years service fromfomation of F in 1908.which seems unfair in comparison to a similer aged Regular.

I have a question concerning re-engagement of TF men.

Could a TF man who previously had made the imperial service commmittment for overseas service re-engage on Home Service only terms of engagement. A previous next door neighbough had a Brother, James Brown, a Sergeant in 1/5 Loyal North Lancashires and acccording to her returned to UK and after re-engagement Leave became an instructer inthe UK but later volunteered to return to F&F to be MIA in the Cambrai German counter attack.

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Could a TF man who previously had made the imperial service commmittment for overseas service re-engage on Home Service only terms of engagement.

Yes , until it was done away with. He could withdraw his ISO at any point.

There's a Hansard debate on this very issue (I can't find it or I'd post the link).

Craig

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Yes , until it was done away with. He could withdraw his ISO at any point.

There's a Hansard debate on this very issue (I can't find it or I'd post the link).

Craig

thanks Craig

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Given that time expired regulars went onto the reserve for a number of years and the reserve could be called back to the colours in time of war it would seem some what academic in their case. If I'm interpreting the questions and answers in the Commons correctly any time expired man under 41 Regular or Territorial was still liable to service under the MSA no matter how long he'd been out of the forces but was treated as if being recalled from the reserve insofar as his rank/seniority was concerned.

I've seen a number of cases where Regulars were released after they had completed their 12 years. The contract was for 12 years, but could be served in various combinations of Regular and Reserve service. I think 5 and 7 were the most common.

Michael

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Does anybody know how many men where actually eligible for Discharge on completion of engagement. in theperiod from 5th August 1915 to 27th January 1916

I can identify three categories

1.Regulars under 41 who completed there Colour and Reserve liability between 5th August 1915 and 26th January 1916, alowing for the twelve month extra sevice from date their service would have ended in peace time.

2.The same dates for TF men

3.Men who could request discharge under the terms of ARO202 1916. i.e having completed at least twelve years service, the extra year war service and over 41 years old who could take their discharge once their engagment was completed.

Men in catergory 1 and 2 would have been liable for conscription from the enactment of the MS act.

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2.The same dates for TF men

A rough figure can be gained from the annual returns - the Oct 13 one will suffice:

post-51028-0-07492900-1391015731_thumb.p

Your looking at up to 110,000 men of all arms from August 14 to Mid 1916 - bearing in mind that April-June time was generally the busiest recruitment period so most of the men in a year would time expire around that time.

to 27th January 1916

I think it was only session 2 of the MSA 1916 from 25 May 1916 which covered the conscription of men who were released from the forces (or had been since August 1914). - http://www.1914-1918.net/msa1916-2.html , paragraph five.

Craig

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Not strictly relevant, but Nfd soldiers who joined under time conditions (at least in two cases that I have seen) could hang their hat (rifle?) up and go home.

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My Gt Grandfather joined 1/8th Royal Scots territorials in 1911 and was discharged time expired as can be seen on his MIC.

He did get trench foot and lost a few toes so maybe this helped with his exit from the military.

Al

post-66740-0-75526500-1391019692_thumb.j

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My Gt Grandfather joined 1/8th Royal Scots territorials in 1911 and was discharged time expired as can be seen on his MIC.

He did get trench foot and lost a few toes so maybe this helped with his exit from the military.

He would have been time expired no later than the end of 1916 but I guess he was probably time expired in the early part of 1916.

Craig

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A rough figure can be gained from the annual returns - the Oct 13 one will suffice:

attachicon.gifCapture.PNG

Your looking at up to 110,000 men of all arms from August 14 to Mid 1916 - bearing in mind that April-June time was generally the busiest recruitment period so most of the men in a year would time expire around that time.

I think it was only session 2 of the MSA 1916 from 25 May 1916 which covered the conscription of men who were released from the forces (or had been since August 1914). - http://www.1914-1918.net/msa1916-2.html , paragraph five.

Craig

thanks Craig

as you say a lot of potential discharges in the TF alone if the 14 TF Divs were at full strength it is still nearly half their strength in possible discharges.

bill

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