Mons Star Medal Rolls.

[Guest]

Hello.

I am not a medal collector so please excuse me if these questions seem very basic. I am interested in obtaining a 1914 Star medal roll for a battalion. I understand the rolls are at the National Archives: Can anyone answer the following questions:

1. What are the formats of the 1914 Star medal rolls? Microfilm, or hard copy ledgers? (I have handled some 1914-15 Star ledgers in the past at TNA)

2. If they are microfilm are there also hard copies or digital copies of them and if not how easy is it to get a copy of the microfilm medal roll?

3. Are there any online records of the 1914 Star medal rolls?

4. Will they include the Army Numbers? I assume the do.

5. How long (numbers) would a typical Battalion roll be? For a battalion in any of the first six Infantry Divisions.

Thanks in advance.

MG

[Sepoy]

Martin

They are original documents. I have attached a copy of a typical page (all be it to mainly PoWs.)

Sepoy

[spof]

Martin

Sepoy has answered most of your questions. For Q5, they seem to be approx 150 pages for a battalion but there are also supplementary rolls which can vary in length. It seems to depend on how many left the regiment later.

Which ones are you after?

Glen

[Guest]

Gents - thanks for your responses.

The 14 Star ledger that Sepoy has shown is exactly the same as the 1914-15 Star Rolls I have handled before - same sheets etc. (I have 660 pages of the Hussar Regiments which were rather inconveniently bundled into one gigantic seething mass of Hussar Regiments - Regular and Yeomanry together.

I assume the Infantry were not quite as barking as the Hussars. Some supplementary questions....

1. Regardless of where soldier ended up if he served within the range of the guns between 4th Aug and 22nd Nov 1914 with the 1st Bn Countyshire Regt ( and subsequently ended up in the labour Corps) I assume he would still be on the Countyshire Regt 14 Star Medal roll? i.e. it is a record of the men who served in that unit at that time..... not the ones who were still serving at the end....

2. Were the 14 Star medal rolls compiled by Battalions within each Regiment? Sepoy's image suggest they were for the KRR - does that mean there was consistency across all Line Infantry? so the 1st Bn Countyshire Regt and 2nd Bn Countyshire Regt would have separate ledgers?

3. SPOF: Your suggestion of 150 pages per unit suggests 12 x 150 = 1,800 which feels about right as I assume (roughly speaking the line Infantry (on average) who landed in Aug-Sep turned over 100% before 22nd Nov 1914. Clearly there was a huge range due to differing levels of casualties and differing efficiencies in the reinforcement chains, but it 'feels' about right.

I am interested for a number of reasons and am looking at every Line Infantry and Guards Infantry and TF Infantry battalion that served on the western front before 22nd Nov. Just curious to know the magnitude of the task of transcribing a 14 Star nominal roll.

For convoluted reasons I am particularly interested in the Lincs, KOYLI, Wesh Regt, R Suusex, Black Watch and the Cameron Highlanders ...and the Scots Guards.

Thanks for your responses... MG

[spof]

Martin

1. Regardless of where soldier ended up if he served within the range of the guns between 4th Aug and 22nd Nov 1914 with the 1st Bn Countyshire Regt ( and subsequently ended up in the labour Corps) I assume he would still be on the Countyshire Regt 14 Star Medal roll? i.e. it is a record of the men who served in that unit at that time..... not the ones who were still serving at the end....

The ones I have do were compiled by that regiment's records office and have entries noting men who transferred to other units, were discharged or discharged to commission etc. so it covers men who were in the unit at the time.

Incidentally, I learned from here over the weekend that the LC did not issue a roll for the 14 Star but started with 14-15.

2. Were the 14 Star medal rolls compiled by Battalions within each Regiment? Sepoy's image suggest they were for the KRR - does that mean there was consistency across all Line Infantry? so the 1st Bn Countyshire Regt and 2nd Bn Countyshire Regt would have separate ledgers?

To me, Sepoy's image is for 4 Middlesex.

Both battalions and the supplementaries are all in the same ledgers so it starts with 1st Bn then 2nd Bn then the "extras". They are initially listed alphabetically by battalion and then there are supplementary rolls which are not always alphabetical nor grouped by regiment. (See below)

Looking at dates, it looks like the nominal roll for the initial deployment and then larger drafts have been used for the main battalion specific entriesas it would automatically meet the qualification requirements of entering France. THe supplementary rolls have a wider range of dates. Notes on the Clasp and Roses are also included.

I have a few rolls but, unfortunately, none of those regiments you mention.

Glen

[Guest]

Glen Thanks.

Yes , 4th Middlesex not KRR. I had the latter on my mind as I am up to my eyes in a KRR War Diary at present. My error, but the point remains and I think you have confirmed this. Thanks.

Ref LC I did not think they were formed in 1914 (I may be wrong on this - but a misleading example. I should have said transferred to another unit (any other unit)) and from the 1914-15 Star Cavalry and Yeomanry rolls I have seen they were all 'as at' those dates and included hundreds of men who subsequently were sent to other units. I used the 14-15 Star roll as a base to build a nominal roll for a few Yeomanry units who deployed in 1915. A very useful source....

MG

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

• In my experience, as a rule of thumb, the Star would be, as would the other Medals, be issued from the last unit served with BUT named to his original unit on arrival overseas, there are of course errors with misnamed medals to later regiments but generally this applies.Only men that died, discharged from or were still serving in that unit would be issued from that Roll.

[kenf48]

As is the serendipitous way with the forum sometimes the same topic comes up in the same week there are supplementary answers to some of your questions on this thread including the instructions for submitting names for the Rolls

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205693#entry2024719

btw as the Times reported after the decoration was announced, 'The attempts to call the new decoration the Mons Star are very much to be deprecated'

Nevertheless I'd wish you luck in your project just seven Divisions!

Ken

[westkent78]

Martin,

Just to let you know, Ancestry are rumoured to be digitizing/have digitized the rolls. Haven't heard when they may put them online but have to assume it would be before the Autumn.

Good luck,

Matthew

[Muerrisch]

I have the full RWF roll for the 1914 and the 1914-15 ................. funny old thing.

[Guest]

Gents....many thanks.

Does anyone know the exact number of men (and women?) entitled to the 1914 Star? I am guessing around 80,000 but a more accurate figure would be welcome.

1. Harry ...noted. Thanks.

2. Ken...thanks, interesting snippets there. It has occurred to me that Mons Star is quite misleading and puts a disproportionate emphasis on the Retreat from Mons(2rd Aug-5th Sep) or the Battle of Mons 23rd-24th Aug 1914.... I would change the thread name but I think it will casue confusion. Note to self for the future. Not just 7 divisions... a few additional TF Infantry too... and a Cav Div.

3. Matthew....thanks. I had heard that rumour too. As an Ancestry subscriber that would be welcome.....there seems to be a land-grab for TNA material ahead of the 100th Anniversaryawn. Lets hope N&M Press ask TNA for rights to publish them too.

4. Grumpy... funny that you have the 2nd Bn RWF..... any evidence of late numbered men coming through the rolls....?...what is the latest numbered man and any idea when he enlisted?

5. Glen...thanks for the PM. Very useful.

MG