11th Accrington Pals Medal advice!

[Ron da Valli]

Just a thought, if both men were later transferred to other regiments, might those have been entitled to the star and been issued as such?

[PhilB]

I can`t see that making any difference, Ron.

[Ron da Valli]

Like I said just a thought. Paul says they are officially impressed so most probably were issued in error, and not "self made." The Accrington Pals were not entitled to the star, despite vigorous protests by the mayor.

[PhilB]

Any chance of a photo, Paul?

[coldstreamer20]

Hi Pals,Many apologies,gave wrong army number for Tom Entwistle 11th Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment,the correct one is 15614,the medal card that this number relates to clearly shows the official issue of a 1914-15 star to the Accrington Pals,regards,Paul.

[Retlaw]

Hi Pals,Many apologies,gave wrong army number for Tom Entwistle 11th Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment,the correct one is 15614,the medal card that this number relates to clearly shows the official issue of a 1914-15 star to the Accrington Pals,regards,Paul.

There was only a hand of the original Accrington Pals entitled to the 14/15 Star, they were an advance party sent to France in Dec 1915 recalled 24 hrs later when the powers that be decided to send them to Egypt. Non of the remainder of the regiment were entitled to the Star, not even the hoccifers who stepped ashore at Gib & Malta, you had to be on foriegn soil for 24 hrs to qualify. I've managed to aquire 4093 Cards for the 11th East Lancs, some of those recorded at Kew cannot be found on Ancestry. In all the time Bill Turner & I worked together on the 11th East Lancs we never saw a genuine 14/15 Star..

[Guest]

I am the Grandson of Lt George Edward Haynes. He was an original Accrington Pal having joined up in September 1914 and at the time of the Battle of the Somme, he was Sgt George Haynes 15993. I never met him as he died in 1956, young as many of them did. His medals were inscribed "2Lt G.E Haynes, 15993, Royal Engineers" because he was the senior NCO signalers for the Pals, serving under 2Lt McAlpine. He was in the front line with the rest of the from the start and was a survivour, probably because he would have been with Colonel Rickman.  After the battle, he was still with them until when he was transferred to R.E Officer Training Unit (OTU) 26th November 1916 . He finished the war in 1920 as a full Lt. I cannot find out why so late as no records with the R.E that I can find so far (anyone know where to find early R.E records, particularly about the newly formed Signals which was probably why George was transferred).

 

I can confirm the legend that the Pals were extremely pissed off with the decision to not grant the Star.  When I was given his medals by my mother in 1980 there were the three correctly mounted, obviously long ago. The 14/15 Star was original but unnamed or inscribed. Also, during WW11 he was a Major, Company Commander "A" 7th Herts Home Guard. I have photo's from 1944 with him wearing the ribbons of the trio. I thought nothing of it at the time.

 

These medals were stolen from my fathers house in South Africa in 1991. Two of them subsequently turned up in the U.K, held by an unscrupulous dealer. They had been 'fenced' by thieves in Johannesburg and bought by a U.K dealer unknown. I couldn't believe they had traveled so far. I found this out around 2004 when I called the Accrington Town Hall from Sydney where I live and was put in touch with the curator who, after asking me if I was 'sitting down' told me that he had been contacted just the previous week by this dealer keen to find out more (undoubtably how much they were worth to him).  After weeks of emailing this person I was told 'he had sold them to persons unknown at a Militaria fair in the north of England'. That was the last I heard of them or the dealer. The silly ****** had probably gone to the medal rolls, seen he was only entitled to the two, tossed the 14/15 Star out that actually had a significance due to the story as to why it was worn. I suspect many wore if for the same reason and there is evidence veterans were wearing it a get togethers well into the 30's and 40's including my Grandfather.

 

Anyone who can help me find these medals will be aptly rewarded. I feel so strongly about this that I traveled from Sydney with my son to the memorial service in Accrington on the 1st of July 2016 as can be seen here http://www.accringtonobserver.co.uk/news/local-news/grandson-pal-travels-south-africa-11621544

 

I chose to not include the Star in the renamed set I had professionally mounted. But if I had the original 3, I would have worn the lot with pride in protest to the unfair decision not to grant the 14/15 Star. As experts have said, they clearly qualified and more being 'in a theatre of war before 31st of December 1915' and in their case under fire and returned fire on an enemy submarine who had engaged them and intended to kill them. What more would they require when cooks and Labour Corps got the Star just for being in France? These were combat soldiers, ready to die for their country and this was not just a punt at getting an extra medal as hundreds of people witnessed the German submarine attack which had sunk a ship just ahead of them already. The sub was even on the surface, not submerged so they saw the enemy eye ball to eyeball.

 

Any info welcome to inpoint@optusnet.com.au or through this forum. Thank you.

 

 

[Retlaw]

25 minutes ago, Jeremy Havard said:

I am the Grandson of Lt George Edward Haynes. He was an original Accrington Pal having joined up in September 1914 and at the time of the Battle of the Somme, he was Sgt George Haynes 15993. I never met him as he died in 1956, young as many of them did. His medals were inscribed "2Lt G.E Haynes, 15993, Royal Engineers" because he was the senior NCO signalers for the Pals, serving under 2Lt McAlpine. He was in the front line with the rest of the from the start and was a survivour, probably because he would have been with Colonel Rickman.  After the battle, he was still with them until when he was transferred to R.E Officer Training Unit (OTU) 26th November 1916 . He finished the war in 1920 as a full Lt. I cannot find out why so late as no records with the R.E that I can find so far (anyone know where to find early R.E records, particularly about the newly formed Signals which was probably why George was transferred).

 

I can confirm the legend that the Pals were extremely pissed off with the decision to not grant the Star.  When I was given his medals by my mother in 1980 there were the three correctly mounted, obviously long ago. The 14/15 Star was original but unnamed or inscribed. Also, during WW11 he was a Major, Company Commander "A" 7th Herts Home Guard. I have photo's from 1944 with him wearing the ribbons of the trio. I thought nothing of it at the time.

 

These medals were stolen from my fathers house in South Africa in 1991. Two of them subsequently turned up in the U.K, held by an unscrupulous dealer. They had been 'fenced' by thieves in Johannesburg and bought by a U.K dealer unknown. I couldn't believe they had traveled so far. I found this out around 2004 when I called the Accrington Town Hall from Sydney where I live and was put in touch with the curator who, after asking me if I was 'sitting down' told me that he had been contacted just the previous week by this dealer keen to find out more (undoubtably how much they were worth to him).  After weeks of emailing this person I was told 'he had sold them to persons unknown at a Militaria fair in the north of England'. That was the last I heard of them or the dealer. The silly ****** had probably gone to the medal rolls, seen he was only entitled to the two, tossed the 14/15 Star out that actually had a significance due to the story as to why it was worn. I suspect many wore if for the same reason and there is evidence veterans were wearing it a get togethers well into the 30's and 40's including my Grandfather.

 

Anyone who can help me find these medals will be aptly rewarded. I feel so strongly about this that I traveled from Sydney with my son to the memorial service in Accrington on the 1st of July 2016 as can be seen here http://www.accringtonobserver.co.uk/news/local-news/grandson-pal-travels-south-africa-11621544

 

I chose to not include the Star in the renamed set I had professionally mounted. But if I had the original 3, I would have worn the lot with pride in protest to the unfair decision not to grant the 14/15 Star. As experts have said, they clearly qualified and more being 'in a theatre of war before 31st of December 1915' and in their case under fire and returned fire on an enemy submarine who had engaged them and intended to kill them. What more would they require when cooks and Labour Corps got the Star just for being in France? These were combat soldiers, ready to die for their country and this was not just a punt at getting an extra medal as hundreds of people witnessed the German submarine attack which had sunk a ship just ahead of them already. The sub was even on the surface, not submerged so they saw the enemy eye ball to eyeball.

 

Any info welcome to inpoint@optusnet.com.au or through this forum. Thank you.

 

Hi Jeremy, you forgot to mention that your grandad enlisted as Frank McVickers, when he lived in Accrington, and was known as that till he applied for a commision. I hope you do manage to get your grandads medals back

 

[Guest]

Yes you are correct in that my Grandfather joined up under a false name for reasons unknown. He was not from Accrington, he was born in Putney, London and became a West End actor who was then on tour in Accrington when the war broke out. I think he may have had several reasons for joining up there under a false name. It is possible he used a stage name which was common then. As he was there for a long time he would also probably have made lots of friends in Accrington and joined up with them. There is also a chance he wanted to disappear from his young wife in London. I pulled all his papers at Kew and his original attestation paper was there signed by the Accrington Mayor Sharples. It gave some fascinating insight as he used his mother and sisters correct first names as relatives but gave them the surname name McVickers. All of the other details were true. He went to school in Marylebone. The first time he uses his real name is on his application for officers course flled in in the trenches with the East Lancs. It is signed by the then acting commanding officer as Rickman was still recovering from his wounds received from a German shell as he stepped out of the H.Q sap on the 1st of July on the Somme. I believe my grandfather would have probably been in the H.Q bunker as senior NCO Signals. He is also mentioned in the Percy Lund diaries several times. Since I posted the above some months ago I had also found out that he served in all the late battles of WW1 and may have also been part of the occupying army of Germany as he only was discharged in 1920 as a signals Lt. I wore the renamed copies of his medals (which includes the WW11 defence medal) here in Sydney during the march on Anzac Day this year April 2019. I march with the South African veterans as I am a veteran myself being an ex South African Air Force officer. I would appreciate any forum members keeping an eye out for my original ones. The are named 2Lt G.E Haynes R.E 15993 (which was his original East Lancs army number. Incidently I can see the Pals were still trying to get the Star after the war. As late as the early 1920's he applies again and is knocked back a note on his medal roll saying that 'the matter is closed'. Well us descendants don't think so as well as East Lancs author Andrew Jackson as it was an injustice that they were not awarded the Star.

Edited 5 May , 2019 by Guest

[johnmelling1979]

On 26/05/2014 at 17:45, coldstreamer20 said:

Hi, Re-Medal trios to orginal Accrington Pals i own two 15265 Pte T.Clitheroe (wounded 1/7/1916) and 15409 Pte T.Entwistle both 1914-15 stars are officially impressed and the medal index cards for both men confirm the award of a 1914-15 star,regards, Paul.

Hello 

I was browsing this thread regarding the Accrington Pals, as RETLAW has died this week!

When I came across your post above which got me excited-

I have a profile for 15265 Pte T.Clitheroe on my website Clayton and Whittle at War

Barely have anything on him

Do you still have those medals? And do you have a picture of them? As I would love to have a picture of them 

 

Cheers

John

 

 

Thomas Clitheroe

Born 1893 ?

Age: ? on enlistment 

Rank: Cpl

Reg: 15265

11 East Lancashire Regiment

Also Kings Liverpool Regiment as 48198

 

Disembarked on 19 December 1915

Demobilized ?

Served in the Balkan Campaign

Also at Serre on 1 July 1916, he was injured in the head and arm.

Parents are Robert and Alice nee Walsh. of Shaw Brow in 1911

 

I believe I am related to Thomas "Tom" Clitheroe, 

His Grandmothers maiden name is PEEL