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Remembered Today:

11th Accrington Pals Medal advice!


Ben3095

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Hi

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on price would be for a 11th Accrinton Pals Trio would be?

I have never came across them before.

Thomas.S. Carter 25484?

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He was discharged 21/5/1917 with wounds. Enlisted 27/04/1916. if that can be linked to a specific action then it might enhance them.

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Hi,

If he enlisted in April 1916 then he isn't an original Accrington Pal and shouldn't have a trio.

Check the enlistment date.

Only entitled to a pair according to his MIC

John

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SWB roll states the above enlistment date, but could do with verifying from other sources if available but MIC only gives BWM and Victory.

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What is on the 14/15 star? If it`s the same man, he must have served with another battalion before joining the Pals. I have previously had a 14 star trio to such a man who was KIA with the Pals. I don`t think any original Pal had a trio. Many complained that they were entitled to one after their experience with the U-boat in the Mediterranean Sea!

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If the SWB roll is correct and if he did serve before April 1916 then that is a huge clerical error. But never say never.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Finally some more info

Joined 1914 Demobbed 1919 Egypt Canal Zone, Turkey galliopli Wounded france mons wouded twice germany wounded

Any thoughts?

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The "original Pals" had service numbers ranging from 15000 to about 18000, so your man is not amongst them. If he did join the 11th Battalion in April 1916 he was probably transferred from another battalion or regiment. If, as you say he enlisted in 1914 then that seems quite likely. The 1914-15 Star was never awarded to the pals, despite Mayor Harwood's attempts due to the attempted sinking of the Ionic. So, he may have been entitled to the star but not as an Accrington Pal. Ironically, the "Llandovery Castle" that shipped the men from Egypt to France, was later sunk by a U-boat off the coast of Ireland.

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And there is still the issue of the discharge and Silver War badge.

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And there is still the issue of the discharge and Silver War badge.

Now you mention it yes. If he received the silver war badge in 1917 how was he then still serving in 1919?

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Hi

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on price would be for a 11th Accrinton Pals Trio would be?

I have never came across them before.

Thomas.S. Carter 25484?

Thomas Carter was Not an Accrington Pal. The Accrington Pals ceased to exist after July 1st 1916, your man did not join them until after July 1st 1916. A small group of Pals group of Pals did get the 15 Star, they were part of an advance party who went to France in December 1915, but were recalled when the were posted to Egypt. 4255 men enlisted or served in the 11th East Lancs from 14th Sept 1914 to Oct 1919 when the last group were discharged.

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Just read this very interesting post.....This is just what makes this forum what it is!. :thumbsup:

Best wishes Retlaw with your on-going research. I have nothing but respect for the Accrington Pals. Got myself upto the memorial last year for the first time which in itself is a wonderful testament to their sacrifice.

(Posted some pictures that I took in my Gallery)

Best Wishes KB

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Thomas Carter was Not an Accrington Pal. The Accrington Pals ceased to exist after July 1st 1916, your man did not join them until after July 1st 1916. A small group of Pals group of Pals did get the 15 Star, they were part of an advance party who went to France in December 1915, but were recalled when the were posted to Egypt. 4255 men enlisted or served in the 11th East Lancs from 14th Sept 1914 to Oct 1919 when the last group were discharged.

I think it`s rather sweeping to say they ceased to exist after 1/7/16, Retlaw. 584 casualties on 1/7/16 indicates almost half the battalion soldiered on and many would have rejoined after recovery from wounds. Certainly the Pals themselves continued to think that way.

Has it been established which original men went to France and got the 14/15 star? I have the pair (plus self engraved 14/15 star!)of 15773 Sgt F Hughes who was Pioneer Sgt, A Coy (Accrington Coy) who might have been a likely candidate?

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Hi,

" I have the pair (plus self engraved 14/15 star!)of 15773 Sgt F Hughes who was Pioneer Sgt,"

That's a strange one, his MIC has him landing in Egypt on 19/12/15 but the card says ineligible for the star 11/3/22 deleted.

Could he have decided he was eligible and got a star and engraved it himself. Makes you wonder.

regards

John

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It`s clearly not officially impressed. I assume he wasn`t entitled to it but made his own. I have wondered, however, whether he might have been with the advance party in France as Pioneer Sgt.

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I think it`s rather sweeping to say they ceased to exist after 1/7/16, Retlaw. 584 casualties on 1/7/16 indicates almost half the battalion soldiered on and many would have rejoined after recovery from wounds. Certainly the Pals themselves continued to think that way.

Has it been established which original men went to France and got the 14/15 star? I have the pair (plus self engraved 14/15 star!)of 15773 Sgt F Hughes who was Pioneer Sgt, A Coy (Accrington Coy) who might have been a likely candidate?

That statement is not sweeping on July 1st 1916 720 men, the fighting strength of the battalion left the trenches, less than 100 men walked away from the trenches on the night of July 4/5th, not all the wounded rejoined the 11th Battalion a large percentage of those wounded finished up back in the 3rd Battalion and were posted to other battalions.

I have now completed the task which Bill Turner set me on his death bed. Sgt Francis Hughes 15773 joined the Pals in Sept 1914 along with his brothers Charles & Ernest who all lived at 5 Maden St, Church. Francis was discharged from the Labour Corps.1-02-1918 age 46, S.W.B. 3123226.

I will say again The Accrington Pals as a battalion ceased to exist after July 1st, the battalion was not brought back up to full strength until December 1916, NCO's and officers being brought in from other regiments, by 11-11-1918 less than 90 of the original enlistee's were still with the battalion.

The 15 Star was a big argument after the war. The final decision was considered an insult. You will find several of them with self engraved stars, even some medal cards of which I've down loaded over 4000, have 15 Star on them, 19th Dec 1915, the same day they set sail for Egypt.

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Hi,

" I have the pair (plus self engraved 14/15 star!)of 15773 Sgt F Hughes who was Pioneer Sgt,"

That's a strange one, his MIC has him landing in Egypt on 19/12/15 but the card says ineligible for the star 11/3/22 deleted.

Could he have decided he was eligible and got a star and engraved it himself. Makes you wonder.

regards

John

They didn't land in Egypt until Jan 1916, the date 19-Dec-1915 is the day they left England for Egypt

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Just read this very interesting post.....This is just what makes this forum what it is!. :thumbsup:

Best wishes Retlaw with your on-going research. I have nothing but respect for the Accrington Pals. Got myself upto the memorial last year for the first time which in itself is a wonderful testament to their sacrifice.

(Posted some pictures that I took in my Gallery)

Best Wishes KB

Thanks K.B.

I have now finished the task that Bill Turner set me. I've also created two Books of Honour for the Acrington Pals casualties for July 1st/5th 1916, which will be presented to the Mayors of Bapaume and Pozieres by the Mayor of Accrington on July 1st 2016. The book has a biography of each man, over 300 of them have a head & sholders thumbnail, plus pictures of all the grave markers around the battlefield.

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Interesting topic, I have a pair (BWM and VM) to 29227 L/Sjt. (Cpl) Arthur Knapper - 11th Btn. East Lancashire Regiment who was KIA at Le Becque (28.06.18) in another famous action. He wasn't an original 'Accrington Pal', came from Burslem and originally served with the North Staffs, I still like to think however that the 11th were still regarded as the 'Accrington Pals' after July 1st. '16 - they fought like lions at Le Becque, Beaulieu Farm and Gombert Farm when Arthur was killed, some soldier he was, a Lance Sergeant at 22.

Never seen a trio to the 11th battalion, plenty of pairs like mine, not too many KIA ones however.

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I shouldn't have used the word 'mine' when referring to Arthur's medals, they are of course his... I am merely the custodian, my apologies.

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Thanks Retlaw, will you books be commercially available?

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  • 3 months later...

Hi, Re-Medal trios to orginal Accrington Pals i own two 15265 Pte T.Clitheroe (wounded 1/7/1916) and 15409 Pte T.Entwistle both 1914-15 stars are officially impressed and the medal index cards for both men confirm the award of a 1914-15 star,regards, Paul.

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Hi, Re-Medal trios to orginal Accrington Pals i own two 15265 Pte T.Clitheroe (wounded 1/7/1916) and 15409 Pte T.Entwistle both 1914-15 stars are officially impressed and the medal index cards for both men confirm the award of a 1914-15 star,regards, Paul.

Tom Clitheroe Pte 15265. 11th East Lancs, wounded July 1st, posted to Liverpools on recovery. He was not entitled to the Star, on the date of issue on his card he was sailing down the English Channel with the rest of the Pals on their way to Egypt.

Thomas Entwistle Pte 15409 11th East Lancs, there is no mention of a Star on his medal card, there was a lot of ill feeling after the war when they were denied the Star, several of them had one made in protest.

I have access to a Star for a J Walsh R.F.A on his medal card the date of issue is the same date he was signing his attestation papers in Accrington Town Hall. Try sorting that one out. Ther are dozens of mistakes on those medal cards, and although Kew have acknowledged the errors I have pointed out, they will not change any thing

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