1/4 th (Hallamshire) Bn York & Lancs - What Battle Patches?

[WFL1888]

Hello to all,

This is my first post but I hope to be able to contribute to the forum where I can.

I am wondering if anyone can help me with the above as insignia/patches really aren't my speciality - nor do I have many references. Basically I am after any information on what insignia would be worn on the service dress jackets by men of 1/4th Y&L's. I have only one reference in the Bn history, written by a serving officer just after the war, where the author describes a 3 x 2 inch red patch "sewn on the back of the collar". This would be May/June 1916 whilst preparing for the Somme.

This confused me on a couple of fronts - a) I thought a divisional identifier was worn on the back below the collar in the middle, and then a Bn identifier worn on the upper sleeve? didn't think any markers were on the collar! (not sure if this is anally taking the written description literally - ie he means beneath the collar in the "usual" position.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. For additional info the 1/4 Y&L were 148th Brigade, 49th West Riding Div.

All the best and thanks in advance for any help.

Martin

[Mike_H]

Martin

The red rectangle was worn sewn horizontally on the back of the collar. This battalion identification was adopted In April 1916 and was worn by all ranks.

The battalion adopted embroidered curved cloth shoulder titles HALLAMSHIRE in red on khaki in December 1916 . (The 2/4th adopted the same titles but in yellow embroidery)

From February 1917 no more brass shoulder titles were being issued to the battalion and they wore the regimental titles Y & L embroidered in white on khaki below the Hallamshire titles.

There was no universal convention throughout the Army as to where the various regimental and divisional marks were worn although where there was a complete divisional scheme in use there was consistency. However, there were a number of units that wore battalion i/ds on the back of the collar, numerous others on the back of the jacket below the collar, at least 3 I can think of had a distinction on one point of the collar, and of course many on the sleeves. Most divisional signs, if worn as cloth badges, were on the sleeves but several were worn on the back of the jacket and the divisions in Salonika were identified by coloured tapes across the base of the shoulder straps. So as you see it is a whole bag of worms trying to establish a 'usual' position of wear for these, you just have to take them battalion by battalion. I hope this helps.

Yours

Mike

[WFL1888]

Hi Mike - that is fantastic many, many thanks for your detailed reply. This is very interesting on a number of points particularly the curved shoulder titles as I hadn't appreciated these types of insignia were in use at these periods, it aso clears up for me the opening intro in D.P Grants history of the Battalion which starts with the sketch:

An officer with the word "Hallamshire" emblazoned on his shoulders sat in a London theatre. Suddenly he became aware of the fact that he was the subject of a hoarsely whispered conversation behind him.

"Where's Hallamshire?"

"Couldn't say -Scotland, I should think."

"Perhaps he's a Canadian"...

Could I ask where your sources are on this as I would like to read up anything I can about the Hallamshires as this was my Gt Grandfather's Battalion and I am trying to gather up as much information as I can on his unit - any further boos or articles welcomed. He was wounded fairly severely in Oct 1916 and transferred out of the unit to home service but always regarded the 1/4th as 'his' unit. I also have a replica jacket which I am collecting the various insignia for so it would be great to look into this one further so I can attempt (an I must stress attempt!!) to replicate these.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and reply, greatly appreciated.

Kind regards,

Martin

[Mike_H]

Martin

The information comes from the IWM's uniform questionnaires which were sent to units at the end of the war and which are held in their Dept of Printed Books and from a letter from the O/C Lt Col Branson which accompanied a specimen of the red rectangle when the Museum, as the National War Museum, started collecting in 1917. I attach a copy of the letter, it will have to be in 2 posts because it loses clarity if I reduce the size any more. Hope this will be of interest

M

Here is the second page.

M

[Mike_H]

Something odd happened to the posting process there, still you have both pages, but not necessarily in the right order - as Eric Morecambe would have said!!

M

[WFL1888]

Hi Mike,

I cannot express my gratitude to you enough for taking the time to respond and post this - this is fantastic and a great piece of primary material to put in my collection of Hallamshire Bn related items. I had heard of this survey taking place whilst following a lead on a thread elsewhere so to see a response to the survey from the time itself 'in the flesh' is great and is a little bit of my Great Grandfather's history coming alive. Almost kind of strange (but most definitely welcome they did!) that the NWM actually carried out this survey at the time to record these details for posterity.

Downloaded, printed and saved - thanks again.

Kind regards,

Martin

[accypal11]

Hey Martin

Looks like we now have to find someone who can make cloth titles for us?

Scott

[WFL1888]

Ey up Pal - fancy meeting you on here!!

Looks like simple red felt cloth which I am trying to now source and will get some cut - trying to determine the size of the things as it looks like the 3"x2" in Grants memoirs is faulty - doesn't physically fit the collar. A very helpful chap on the cloth insignia thread elsewhere may have got this to 1 1/2" x 1/2" patch size from other sources which we are exploring. Not got the foggiest on the shoulder arches in terms of size etc.!

Cheers,

Martin