Private Thomas Phineas Twine, what next?

[Guest Dobbin145]

Hello,

This is my first post to this forum, have to say the info and wealth of knowledge from other threads (and the Long, Long Trail) has been quite an inspiration. Part of me me thinks that I may have made reasonable progress in tracking down the history of the grandfather I never knew. He died some time after the war although I've yet to establish when exactly.

Anyway from his demob papers I have established that we was in the 20th Battalion London Regiment, which if I've got it right was also known as the Woolwich and Blackheath. This certainly fits with where he lived and worked (although he was born in Paddington). According to Army Form Z21 he enlisted on 5th December 1915 for the 6th Royal Fusiliers, from which I have also read that some 47 or more Divisions were 'spawned' during the war.

According to the Medal Roll index card (from the National Archives) his initial regimental number was 5995, but seems to have changed to 632951 (which matches the demob papers). Was this common? (the number changing) just wondered why.

Assuming that he arrived in France early 1916 could it be possible that he saw action with 47th Division at High Wood in the Somme Sep 1916? Amongst his personal possessions is the chain-mail remains of a 'Splatter' mask worn by tank crews, and from various accounts the Battle of Flers-Courcelette saw the first deployment of the 'tank' and four of them at High Wood.

Is there any way to establish which company he was in?

Also I'm told he was wounded several times, one of which was a 'Blighty' and he ended up near Winchester and returned to his Battln, Could this have been Hazley Camp?

Is there likely to be any more info on the actual medal roll? And is there likely to be any record of his medical history remaining? If so is that information likely to be with the Nation Arvhives?

We also have a hand annotated OS Map of the Cambrai Area from 1917, which I believe 47th Division also saw action.

Finally, his British War and Victory Medals were stolen from my parents house some time ago. Do collectors list medals by name or is it pot luck? Has anyone has ever successfully found a relatives medals?

Any suggestion or info is most welcome.

[sotonmate]

D145

Welcome to the Forum !

The 6 Royal Fusiliers were a Reserve Battalion in the UK,and the RF were known to provide trained soldiers to the London Regiment which were Territorial Force Battalions.

On transfer to 20 Londons Thomas's number would have changed from an RF one (5995) to a London one (632951). 20 Londons fought in France and Flanders with 141 Brigade of 47 Division.Thomas will have landed some time in 1916 as part of a replacement draft for losses.

If you look at that Division's page in the Long Long Trail,at top left of this page, you will see where they fought.

There doesn't seem to be a service record surviving for him so you may not get all the answers that you need.

A medical history is unlikely to be found,though some Casualty Clearing Station and other records are surviving but only as a representative sample. The service record would have shown which treatment places he was sent to.

There is a section here where members list the medals and the names of the recipient that they have,usually as collectors. It's in Classic Threads and is about fourth down the first page "this is the name on my medals" or similar.

[Guest Dobbin145]

Hi Sotonmate

Thanks for the rapid response and for the info. Looks like I was mainly on the right track.

Cheers

D

[DaveKey]

Hi,

There were several military hospitals in the Winchester area. Ignoring the various auxiliary hospitals there were military hospitals in Winchester itself and in the army camps at Magdalen (Morn) Hill, Hazeley Down,and Hursley Park. If you do find out which hospital he was in, and you want to know anything about them, just let me know and I'll do what I can to help.

Cheers

Dave

[ralphjd]

There is a death registered in 1936 of a Thomas P Twist age 68, possibly yours ? Ralph.

[Stebie9173]

There was a re-numbering excercise in 1917 (partly due to the number of Territorial Battalions, especially large T.F. Regiments like the London Regiment). See:

http://www.1914-1918.net/renumbering.htm

Men were usually issued new numbers in the same order as their old ones, but with men who were discharged or killed (unless still "missing") before then not getting a new number.

The London Regiment (Territorial) only and Royal Fusiliers (Regular only) were both Regiments that recruited mainly in London and retained certain ties (the lower numbered London Regiments were successors to Volunteer Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers), but were separate Regiments. Having said that the distinctions became more blurred as the war progressed.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

I cannot see a service record for him either.

However, sometimes when we can't find a service record we can think laterally and look at men with similar Regimental numbers who may have had a similar path through the war (at least to the point of arrival overseas). In this case, I think 632955 Frederick Vine's service records could be enlightening, though they are not complete. These show that Frederick Vine vounteered under the Derby Scheme on 7 December 1915, was mobilised in February 1916 and posted to the 6th Royal Fusiliers for training, and then went overseas in June 1916 having transferred to the 20th London Regiment and got his new numbers. This is only one "swallow" (as in "one swallow not making a summer") but I think may be a good starting point. It may be useful to track the service of other men you can find with the same number combinations to compare their service with Frederick Twine's and extrapolate that to Thomas Twine.

This would put him one the Somme for the High Wood battles.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Just to noted about the numbering sequences, a soldier would get a Regimental number upon being mobilised and posted to a training unit. In this case it seems like these would have been numbers prefixed with a "G/" (general, war-time enlistments) in the Royal Fusiliers. After training the men would be posted to a unit overseas. First choice in this case would be a needy battalion of the Royal Fusiliers, with the second option being a battalion of the London Regiment. In this case they seem to have moved to the London Regiment. This was a change of Regiments so triggered a change in numbers. The numbers in the 20th London Regiment had reached the 5000s by that time so the "batch" was allocated numbers from about 5900 onwards. I have posted part of what seems to be this group transfer below. Notice how the first letters of the surnames are in alphabetical order, indicactive of a group of men transferring together and being allocated numbers in the same process. In March 1917 these men, without changing battalions or regiments, would then received a number, in the same order as their old numbers, from the set of numbers allocated to the 20th Battalion(s) of the London Regiment - 630001 to 650000.

Leonard Gater --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5930, 632900

Charles Godfrey --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5932, 632902

Frederick Gough --->20th London Regiment, Army Service Corps Numbers: 632903, T/406448

John Green --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment, Royal West Kent Regiment Numbers: 5934,632904, G/41923

George H Hawkins --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5937, 632906

John A Herand --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment, Royal West Kent Regiment Numbers: 5938,632907, G/41662

Ernest William Hobbs --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5939, 632908

Herbert Hodge --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5941, 632910

William Hughes --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5494, 632911

Thomas Ireson --->20th London Regiment, Dorsetshire Regiment Numbers: 632912, 46197

Walter L Jewell --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5945, 632913

Albert E Kett --->20th London Regiment, Labour Corps Numbers: 632915, 623106

Herbert Kimber --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5948, 632916

Walter J King --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5949, 632917

Frank Langford --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5952, 632919

Robert Thomas Leigh --->20th London Regiment,London Regiment Numbers: 5953, 632920

Edward A Lorenzi --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5954, 632921

Edwin Mawbey --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5955, 632922

George E Maylett --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5956, 632923

Thomas F Moore --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5958, 632924

Frederick J Oram --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5960, 632926

Donald Paine --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5962, 632927

Charles A Rutherford --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5967, 632931

Albert Sanders --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5969, 632932

Horace R Searle --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment, Royal West Kent Regiment Numbers: 5971,632933, G/22469

Ernest Seear --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5972, 632934

Albert Charles Frederick Seymour --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5973, 632935

Ernest Sharp --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5974, 632936

Arthur W Sibley --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5976, 632938

James J Sibley --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5977, 632940

John Smith --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5982, 632942

Robert J Spratt --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5984, 632943

George Taylor --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5988, 632945

George Thomas --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5989, 632946

Ernest Townsend --->20th London Regiment, Royal Fusiliers, 20th LondonRegiment, Royal Engineers Numbers: 5991, G/24638,632947, 551956

Alfred Trafford --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5992632948

Edgar Thomas Cleverley Trow --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5993, 632949

Joseph J Turner --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5994, 632950

Thomas Twine --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5995, 632951

George Valentine --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5996, 632952

Ernest Verity --->20th London Regiment, 4London Regiment Numbers: 5997, 632953

Thomas G Vince --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5998, 632954

Frederick W Vine --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 5999, 632955

Eric C A Waghorne --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6000, 632956

George Wallis --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6001, 632957

William Whaley --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6004, 632960

John White --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6005, 632961

William White --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6007, 632963

Joseph Wilson --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6009, 632964

Frank H Wyles --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6014, 632969

Henry H Young --->20th London Regiment, 20th London Regiment Numbers: 6015, 632970

In theory, all of these men should have transferred at the same time..... (the list doesn't start from "A" only because I stopped compiling the list!)

Second "swallow" - Walter L Jewell (5945 and 632913)

Attested, 15-12-1915

Mobilised, 9-2-1916

Posted to 6th Battalion Royal Fusiliers, 9-2-1916

Transferred to 3/20th Battalion London Regiment, 6-6-1916

Embarked to France and posted to 1/20th Battalion London Regiment, 15-6-1916

Wounded at High Wood and again in November 1916 and discharged on 4-4-1917 just after being renumbered.

These are the same dates, bar attestation, as appear on Frederick Vines records.

Third "swallow" - Leonard Gater (5930 and 632900)

Same dates as above.

In addition, posted to 1/20th London Regiment from Base Depot 30-6-1916 and joined 1/20th Battalion London Regiment on 2-7-1916

Steve.

[paul leeson]

Steve

Good work getting that list together. From the date of joining 5821 on 1/6/16 and 6515 on 29/7/16 I wonder if a number of the earlier ones would have been sent to 2/20th to bring them up to strength for their deployment to France on 24/6/16 ? I am not sure we can assume Thomas was 1/20th ?

Paul