Royal Horse Artillery signalman badge

[robbouk]

Still trying to identify the photo of my soldier with RHA cap badge. The signalmans badge on bottom left sleeve which I have

is on a dark blue velvet background. Is this significant of any regiment or was the normal badge.

[Sepoy]

The cross flags arm (trade) badge just indicates that he is a specialist signaller, it does not indicate a Regiment/Corps. The crossed flags badge can be found made in metal, cloth or even wire bullion. I have attached an example of a gilding metal badge.

You state that you have a photograph of a soldier wearing a RHA cap badge. During WW1 the Royal Horse Artillery wore the standard gilding metal Artillery cap badge which was also worn by the Royal Field Artillery and Royal Garrison Artillery. There are Territorial RHA variants of the standard badge but it would be difficult to pick these out in a photograph. The main way of confirming which arms of the Artillery someone served in is by the Shoulder Titles. If your chap is wearing a white metal RHA cap badge including a Royal cypher, he is not a WW1 soldier.

Hope this helps

[robbouk]

Thanks, the badge is the same as your image on a dark blue velvet background. I am sure it is WW1 , shoulder badge as far as I

can see is metal.

[Muerrisch]

The signaller badge [not signalman] was not a trade badge as such, but a skill-at-arms badge. The former were worn upper right arm, the latter lower left.

On the service dress the badge was either gilding metal ["brass"] as illustrated, or brown/buff/white worsted, or even enamelled flags in the appropriate colours on gilding metal , a private purchase vanity item which is fairly common. Many soldiers purchased badges from private makers or tailors. In trenches, the metal badges tended to catch on obstacles at bad moments, so there is anecdotal evidence that sewn-on worsted versions were preferred, although the gilding metal ones were more likely to impress the girls.

On the pre-war full dress the badges are to be found in varying qualities embroidered on coloured backings: dark blue-black and scarlet being the most common.

[robbouk]

Thanks for the information .It must be a skills badge because it is worn lower left sleeve above a chevron and vertical wound(?) stripe. Lower

right sleeve shows three chevrons. Shoes with spurs and puttees wound around very tightly and neatly. Photograph was taken by H.Bullock,

High Street, Crewe which confirms to me the area he was from but alas no name.

[robbouk]

Still trying to find the name of soldier photo from WW1. I have found that my fathers cousin was a Clifford Victor Cross from Fenton, Staffs.

He died 1/7/1916 age 20. He served in 2/1st North Midland Field. Corp. Sapper R/E. Is it possible that the uniform in photo could be of

this man?

[FROGSMILE]

Still trying to find the name of soldier photo from WW1. I have found that my fathers cousin was a Clifford Victor Cross from Fenton, Staffs.

He died 1/7/1916 age 20. He served in 2/1st North Midland Field. Corp. Sapper R/E. Is it possible that the uniform in photo could be of

this man?

Yes, it is very likely that he was a soldier of the Royal Engineers, "Signal Service", who were the forerunners of the Royal Corps of Signals. During WW1 the Signal Service adopted the wearing of an arm band in blue and white, but not all photos shows these arm bands being worn.

[Scalyback]

Can you post copys of the photos as I can not see them. The original OP does indicate a RHA man(given the cap badge described) that is signals qualified. The second newer request mentions a man in a RE field coy not a signal coy. Both RE units but not connected.

[robbouk]

Photo of the soldier I am still trying to identify. Any suggestion of regiment etc. Would be grateful of any advice.

[Sepoy]

He is in the Artillery (Royal Horse Artillery; Royal Field Artillery or Royal Garrison Artillery).You may be able to read his shoulder title, if the photo is blown up, and work out if he is in the RHA RFA or RGA. He is not wearing ball buttons which would instantly mark him as RHA.

In addition to the Signaller badge on his left arm, he has a chevron (good conduct badge), which shows that he has 2 to 5 years service, and a wound stripe. He is also wearing a 1903 Pattern leather bandolier.

Sepoy

[robbouk]

Does the bandolier mean that it was possibly taken before 1914-18 or definitely WW1. Any suggestions as to how I can find his name or regiment. Photo taken in Crewe , Cheshire.

Thought it may have been Clifford Victor Cross who is a relative of my fathers but he was in Royal Engineers and killed. Does this photo rule Royal Engineers out?

Thanks for information.

[battiscombe]

This is surely WWI - but in 1917?, as I understand it, many RFA signallers were transferred to RE [as 'signalling' became ever more technical], albeit often staying with their units. But Clifford Cross RE was killed July 1916 sonot this man who is wearing a wound stripe only issued in 1916. But I would think his cap has an artillery badge. He is also wearing at least 3 overseas chevrons on his lower Rt arm so this is taken after feb 1918

I suggest artilleryman, signaller, photo is 1918+, went to France in 1915. wounded once.

[robbouk]

Thanks, it looked like he survived the war if it was taken after 1918.. Thats good. Would it have been a severe injury to have been given a wound stripe.

I just need to find out who he is because I have his photo and his signalman flags. I thought it may have been a Fewtrell but he too was in Royal Engineers.

Will keep looking for Fletcher, Cross and Fewtrell and see if I can find any relations. Thanks for help.

[Muerrisch]

It is "signaller". A signalman worked on the railways.

[robbouk]

It is possible I may have found him. There is an Ernest Fewtrell, signaller in the Royal Artillery his number is 4505.

My dads cousin was Ernest Fewtrell. I just need to confirm if the Ernest Fewtrell, signaller is from Crewe, Thanks for

pointing me in the direction that he survived the war.

[kevinrowlinson]

It is "signaller". A signalman worked on the railways.

I would agree that he is a signaller.

However.... I have seen records of men who have passed their test for signalman with the RE and one can presume that they went on to serve on the railways, probably as they had previously done in civil life.

In addition the strange thing is that I have seen quite a few RGA signallers who were transferred to the RE (mainly 1919) and were re-tested and the officer RE has written "Signalman "A"" or "Signalman "B"" as their classification after testing. These men did not have any association with the railways before or after testing.

lilyeva1

I am not convinced that he is an artilleryman. The cap badge isn't clear to me.

Have you considered Sapper 47061 Arthur Fewtrell from Crewe. Fitter and later signaller, one good conduct badge and in and out of hospital with malaria. Service records survive. Father Henry Fewtrell, 93 Ramsbottom Street, Crewe. If nothing else one to eliminate. Perhaps another relative.

Kevin

[robbouk]

I did consider Arthur Fewtrell and he was a cousin of Ernest Fewtrell but not a direct relative of my father.

Ernest was a cousin of my father. I am floundering again now! My original copy of photo looks like artillery cap badge.

[FROGSMILE]

Personally i am 100% confident that the cap badge shown is RFA (et al), nothing like RE.

As a signaller RA he is likely to have been qualified both on the gun line and with the Forward Observation Officer controlling fire alongside the infantry. Together they formed a FOO party. He also has a whip and spurs so likely also to be a driver. A keen and well qualified young man.

[kevinrowlinson]

As happens many times this has already been discussed, one being http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205164&hl=fewtrell . If the photo is of 4505 Ernest Fewtrell then he is listed on a casualty form "wounded slight" admitted hospital 10th Oct 1915. He was serving with 81 Bde. Possibly local newspapers for the time may give further details.

I particularly liked, "I did consider Arthur Fewtrell and he was a cousin of Ernest Fewtrell but not a direct relative of my father. Ernest was a cousin of my father."

Kevin

[Muerrisch]

Personally i am 100% confident that the cap badge shown is RFA (et al), nothing like RE.

As a signaller RA he is likely to have been qualified both on the gun line and with the Forward Observation Officer controlling fire alongside the infantry. Together they formed a FOO party. He also has a whip and spurs so likely also to be a driver. A keen and well qualified young man.

I am looking for authoritative edict on RA practice on the subject of Forward Observation Officer : FOO, please. This subject has been touched on elsewhere, and is not of great importance, just an itch for me to scratch.

I think the term FOO is a post Great war construct. Not that "observation officers" did not exist, indeed their duties are specifically described in Field Artillery Training Part II 1914.

Whereas my RHA friends in the 1980s bandied about terms such as FOO, I rather think that their 1914 equivalents would have recognised the job but not the job title.

[FROGSMILE]

I am looking for authoritative edict on RA practice on the subject of Forward Observation Officer : FOO, please. This subject has been touched on elsewhere, and is not of great importance, just an itch for me to scratch.

I think the term FOO is a post Great war construct. Not that "observation officers" did not exist, indeed their duties are specifically described in Field Artillery Training Part II 1914.

Whereas my RHA friends in the 1980s bandied about terms such as FOO, I rather think that their 1914 equivalents would have recognised the job but not the job title.

You make an excellent point Grumpy and in an area where I have been professionally employed and so have some interest

At the beginning of WW1 there were certainly no FOO in the way that we think of them now and the term would not have been familiar I agree. Indeed pretty much throughout 1914 guns were fired frequently in direct fire mode and in extremis (which was a lot) over open sights.

It was generally the setting in of relatively static trench warfare that began to change things. The experts in the the now much needed indirect fire were the unfashionable RGA and you can imagine how well that went down with the RHA and to a lesser degree RFA traditionalists who had viewed the wind tables, clinometers, theodolites and range tables somewhat suspiciously as damned mumbo jumbo.

Anyway, to keep it short, much work was carried out in transferring and developing these skills throughout 1915-17 and the RHA and RFA (and Dominion colleagues) learned their lessons well so that by 1918 it was arguable that they had the most advanced procedures in the World. The Canadians in particular did good work in this regard having some senior officers who were real enthusiasts in fine tuning these relatively (to 1914) new procedures.

The final stage of what was really a swift evolution was after the eventual holding of the German Kaiserschlacht in 1918 and our own Counter Offensive from August through to November. It was in this part that the RA as a whole supported the infantry forward with observation parties comprising an officer and one or two signallers. Whether the FOO acronym had entered the official military lexicon at that time I am not sure (probably not), but it was certainly part of gunner/infantry speak in the sense that I have seen the words used in individual officers and other ranks written accounts (in the sense of 'observation officers' (by then well known) moving 'forward' with the infantry as they advanced).

Certainly, by the time of Haig's great 100-days offensive the gunnery procedures of the British, Canadian and Australian artillery, in 'close' support of infantry were second to none. The American's too should be mentioned, as they had learned a lot in a short time and by attachment on rotation with their Canadian and Australian counterparts (whose less stuffy attitudes they shared) were also adept at the necessary procedures to support their own (Argonne) offensive.

In short, the term "Forward" was just added to observation officer to reflect the gunner officer who accompanied the infantry as they advanced in the new mobile warfare, as opposed to the gunner officer who previously had stayed with the infantry in defensive trenches in an attempt to deliver counter battery fire on to the enemy artillery supporting the opposing trenches.

[battiscombe]

The term is certainly used in RFA war diaries.. I can see examples in 1917 e.g. "Lt Scroggin of 9th Battery 41st Bde goes out as F.O.O. & does good work [st Julien]" ... but I suspect this is in use in 1915 ?? .. this may also be picked up in CRA artillery orders when such officers are allocated to units..

in fact I see a memo from c/o 44th Brigade RFA 12th Nov1914in 2nd Div CRA diary..."one section connected by telephone with a forward observing officer..."

[kevinrowlinson]

Two books which may be of interest to anybody who wants a good basic guide to the RGA, written in 1916 by an officer under a nom de plume of...... F.O.O.

http://www.archive.org/stream/makingofgunner00streiala/makingofgunner00streiala_djvu.txt

https://archive.org/stream/withguns00foof#page/n5/mode/2up

Kevin

[FROGSMILE]

Two books which may be of interest to anybody who wants a good basic guide to the RGA, written in 1916 by an officer under a nom de plume of...... F.O.O.

http://www.archive.org/stream/makingofgunner00streiala/makingofgunner00streiala_djvu.txt

https://archive.org/stream/withguns00foof#page/n5/mode/2up

Kevin

Great stuff, Kevin. Thank you for posting.

I am very pleased to learn that as I had originally thought the term did come into use in WW1.

[FROGSMILE]

The term is certainly used in RFA war diaries.. I can see examples in 1917 e.g. "Lt Scroggin of 9th Battery 41st Bde goes out as F.O.O. & does good work [st Julien]" ... but I suspect this is in use in 1915 ?? .. this may also be picked up in CRA artillery orders when such officers are allocated to units..

in fact I see a memo from c/o 44th Brigade RFA 12th Nov1914in 2nd Div CRA diary..."one section connected by telephone with a forward observing officer..."

Thanks battiscombe, great to have those references and know that the term was in use as I had originally thought.