Samuel Hoy, KRRC and Royal Irish Rifles

[SeveH]

Hi all.

I’m a newcomer to The Great War Forum and pretty new to the field of research and I’m hoping that someone may be able to assist.

I’m researching my great uncle, Samuel Hoy. Born in Belfast Northern Ireland in 1898; killed in action in Flanders on 7^th June 1917 (I’m assuming the first day of the Battle of Messines) and commemorated on Panel 40 of the Menin Gate Memorial to the Missing.

My research to date has discovered that he originally enlisted in the Kings Royal Rifle Corps (Regimental Number R/19903) in Belfast, and at some point transferred to the 10^th Battalion, Royal Irish Rifles (Regimental Number 40211). I’ve uncovered his will dated 21^st June 1916, when a member of the KRRC, and his Medal Index Card mentions that he was a member of both regiments.

No information or documents/photos on him have been passed down through the family so I’ve had to start from scratch. I’ve been scouring the forums for similar posts and found some good sources of information. I’ve managed to locate him and his family in the 1901 and 1911 Census but I have been unable to locate his Service Record or anything else for that matter. Any information of any sort would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Steve

[MickLeeds]

Hello,

if you contact this site "Great War Belfast Clippings" it looks like they might have a newspaper clipping of Samuel Hoy's death.

http://www.greatwarbelfastclippings.com/

The site is compiled and run by a member of this forum "Fitzroy PC"

Mick.

[SeveH]

Many thanks Mick. Looks like a good starting point.

Steve.

[SeveH]

Hi folks,

Unfortunately I have reached a dead end in my research due to my limited experience in this field.

I have been unable to uncover anything other than what is in my original post.

Would anyone be able to assist me in finding a lead - no matter how small - that could point me to where I might find more information on my great uncle's short military career?

Many thanks,

Steve

[hen190782]

Steve

Firstly, welcome to the Great War Forum!

I have newspaper pictures of several men called Hoy:

Hoy, Samuel, Private, Royal Inniskilling Fusilier, 82 Newcastle Street Belfast, Died, 16-10-1914 (appears on PCI Roll of Honour for the Westbourne congregation)

Hoy, S, Rifleman, RIR, Kilmakee Templepatrick Antrim, Died

Hoy, S, Rifleman, RIR, Ballymurphy Springfield Road Belfast, Died

On the PCI Roll of Honour, there is a Samuel Hoy listed for the Broadway congregation - these are the addresses that I have identified for him:

9 Syringa Street (1901 Census); 189 Upper Meadow Street (1911 Census) and 95 Upper Meadow Street (1918 Belfast Street Directory)

Unfortunately I do not have a photo of this Samuel Hoy, but I can provide a photo of the Church War Memorial. If you want a copy, let me know and I will send you a Personal Message via GWF containing my email address.

Nigel

Mickleeds - thanks for the advert

[ulsterlad2]

Hi SeveH. Here is Samuel Hoy's name on Panel 40 of the Menin Gate.

[SeveH]

Nigel,

Thanks for the info. The Samuel Hoy on the Broadway Church Memorial is most likely my uncle as he did hail from Syringa Street and Upper Meadow Street. I would love to take you up on your offer of a copy of the photograph. I know of the other three Samuels you mention and have visited the Thiepval Memorial where Samuel from Ballymurphy is honoured. I have also visited and photographed the grave of Samuel from Templepatrick, who is buried in Ancre Cemetery. He shares a grave with EM Aron, a member of the Royal Naval Reserve. The headstone carries the emblems of both the Royal Irish Rifles and the Royal Navy.

Many thanks to Ulsterlad2 for the photo - and to Mick.

All help is greatly appreciated.

Steve

[MBrockway]

I’m researching my great uncle, Samuel Hoy. Born in Belfast Northern Ireland in 1898; killed in action in Flanders on 7^th June 1917 ...

...

... he originally enlisted in the Kings Royal Rifle Corps (Regimental Number R/19903) in Belfast, <snip>.. I’ve uncovered his will dated 21^st June 1916, when a member of the KRRC

Steve,

I cannot be conclusive about an enlistment date for his KRRC Service Number of R/19903 as this falls in the period at the end of the Derby/Group Schemes and the beginning of conscription under the Military Service Acts - December 1915 to April 1916.

Some men in this period appear to have been allocated a service number when they first attested but not necessarily when they were called up, while others seem to have only got their number when they were actually called up even though they probably attested in Dec 1915.

Thus the numeric sequence has enlistment dates progressing through spring 1916 but with a sprinkling of men with enlistment dates going back to December 1915.

Samuel Hoy's enlistment date is *probably* EITHER between 28 Feb and 12 Mar 1916 with 07-08 Mar 1916 as the favourite, OR back in 10-12 Dec 1915 but where he was probably not actually called up until early March 1916.

His MIC shows no entitlement to the 1914-15 Star, so he definitely did NOT go overseas before 01 Jan 1916.

The 21 Jun 1916 date of his Will while still with the KRR's, would be consistent with completing three and a half months of training in one of the KRRC training battalions and being posted to a fighting battalion overseas. The KRR's seem to have written their wills just before embarking, or just after disembarking but while still at the Infantry Base Depots on the coast.

In other words, it looks probable (note my emphasis) that he went overseas with the KRRC.

As a rifleman, he would have found no difficulty in transferring to the Royal Irish Rifles, who would have shared in common rifles drill and traditions.

As regards his KRRC battalion, I cannot help. You may find that detail on the RIR British War and Victory Medal Roll.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers,

Mark

[hen190782]

Steve

Have sent you a GWF message.

Nigel

[MBrockway]

The 21 Jun 1916 date of his Will while still with the KRR's, would be consistent with completing three and a half months of training in one of the KRRC training battalions and being posted to a fighting battalion overseas. The KRR's seem to have written their wills just before embarking, or just after disembarking but while still at the Infantry Base Depots on the coast.

I forgot to explain of course that most soldiers completed their will when they were issued with their Active Service Soldier's Pay Book (Army Book 64) which only happened when they were under orders to go overseas.

See instructions on page 1 ...

[SeveH]

MBrockway,

Mark,

Many thanks for the valuable information you have supplied.

As conscription did not apply in Northern Ireland, am I right in assuming that the "official" minimum age of enlistment was 18? If that is the case, I suspect you are right about March being his enlistment date as his 18th birthday was in February 1916 - and the dates you suggest would tie in.

I would dearly love to discover why he enlisted in the KRRC, when at the time, I would imagine most young men in Belfast were joining one of the Ulster Division regiments. I would also like to know where he trained and where his first overseas deployment was.

Thanks to everyone on the GWF for all the assistance.

Steve

[MBrockway]

I would dearly love to discover why he enlisted in the KRRC, when at the time, I would imagine most young men in Belfast were joining one of the Ulster Division regiments. I would also like to know where he trained and where his first overseas deployment was.

Steve

The KRRC and The Rifle Brigade were considered elite regiments, but with perhaps less of the social exclusiveness of the Guards. Like the Guards, they recruited nationally.

If you can get sight of his entry on the Royal Irish Rifles British War & Victory Medal roll, you may find his KRRC battalion listed as well. Well worth doing.

You want B/104B18, page 2683, which converts to a National Archive reference of WO 329/1677 - here's the Discovery entry: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C4436895

Unfortunately it has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded. A visit to Kew will be required, or if you're very lucky some kind Pal here on the Forum may be able to look it up for you.

[SeveH]

The KRRC and The Rifle Brigade were considered elite regiments, but with perhaps less of the social exclusiveness of the Guards. Like the Guards, they recruited nationally.

If you can get sight of his entry on the Royal Irish Rifles British War & Victory Medal roll, you may find his KRRC battalion listed as well. Well worth doing.

You want B/104B18, page 2683, which converts to a National Archive reference of WO 329/1677 - here's the Discovery entry: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C4436895

Unfortunately it has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded. A visit to Kew will be required, or if you're very lucky some kind Pal here on the Forum may be able to look it up for you.

Mark,

Thanks once again.

I'm hoping to be in London in April, so I will try to get to Kew while I'm there. In the meantime, if any of the Pals reading this have an opportunity to look it up I'd be very grateful.

Many thanks,

Steve

[SeveH]

The KRRC and The Rifle Brigade were considered elite regiments, but with perhaps less of the social exclusiveness of the Guards. Like the Guards, they recruited nationally.

If you can get sight of his entry on the Royal Irish Rifles British War & Victory Medal roll, you may find his KRRC battalion listed as well. Well worth doing.

You want B/104B18, page 2683, which converts to a National Archive reference of WO 329/1677 - here's the Discovery entry: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C4436895

Unfortunately it has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded. A visit to Kew will be required, or if you're very lucky some kind Pal here on the Forum may be able to look it up for you.

Unfortunately I'm not going to make it to London until the end of the year, so could anyone spare the time whilst at TNA to copy the above entry for me?

Many thanks

Steve.

[SeveH]

I've finally managed to get hold of Samuel’s entry in the Royal Irish Rifles British War & Victory Medal Roll from TNA, and it notes his KRRC battalion as the 16th. Many thanks to Mark for pointing me in that direction.

I understand that the 16th was formed from the Church Lads Brigade, and I’ve found a number of posts on the forum relating to the 16^th KRRC and the CLB – many thanks to everyone for that.

This new information has led to the possibility that Samuel was a member of the CLB of St Barnabus Church of Ireland, Duncairn Gardens, in North Belfast. This church sadly no longer exists, but amalgamated with St Paul’s in York Road, Belfast. As a former member of that congregation, it will form another line of inquiry for me.

Given that Samuel signed his will on 21^st June 1916, do any of the Pals think it’s possible that one of his first actions would have been the 15 July attack at High Wood?

My quest continues, but in the meantime, any info on the 16^th and it’s recruitment in Ulster would be much appreciated.

Steve

[MBrockway]

Steve,

I strongly recommend you drop Pal @conijoni a line ont e Forum PM system.

Johnny knows a great deal about the CLB in Ulster.

It is highly likely Samuel would have taken part in the 16/KRRC action at High Wood in 1916.

Cheers,

Mark

[SeveH]

Mark,

Thanks once again for your lead. I've sent conijoni a PM as you suggested.

Cheers

Steve

[MBrockway]

More on 16/KRRC at High Wood here: 15th July 1916 16th K.R.R.C. High Wood

[MBrockway]

On 11/08/2014 at 10:46, SeveH said:

I've finally managed to get hold of Samuel’s entry in the Royal Irish Rifles British War & Victory Medal Roll from TNA, and it notes his KRRC battalion as the 16th. Many thanks to Mark for pointing me in that direction.

I understand that the 16th was formed from the Church Lads Brigade, and I’ve found a number of posts on the forum relating to the 16^th KRRC and the CLB – many thanks to everyone for that.

This new information has led to the possibility that Samuel was a member of the CLB of St Barnabus Church of Ireland, Duncairn Gardens, in North Belfast. This church sadly no longer exists, but amalgamated with St Paul’s in York Road, Belfast. As a former member of that congregation, it will form another line of inquiry for me.

Given that Samuel signed his will on 21^st June 1916, do any of the Pals think it’s possible that one of his first actions would have been the 15 July attack at High Wood?

My quest continues, but in the meantime, any info on the 16^th and it’s recruitment in Ulster would be much appreciated.

Steve

 

I know you managed to get hold of this already Steve, but for the convenience of the other Pals, here's Samuel Hoy's RIR BW&VM roll entry ...

 

His KRRC service number was in fact R/19903.  It is very common for these letter prefixes to be omitted when a former KRRC rifleman appears in another regiment's medal roll.

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

16/KRRC went out on 17 Nov 1915.  As Samuel Hoy has no Star entitlement, he must have joined 16/KRRC as a replenishment draft after the battalion was already in theatre.

Mark