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Remembered Today:

Ossuary at Verdun


Christina Holstein

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For the first time the name of a German soldier who went missing at Verdun will be commemorated in the Ossuary.

He is Peter Freundl and his plaque will be unveiled together with that of a French soldier, Victor Manassy, on Sonday 9th February at 11.15am.

I wonder how many more families will follow his example?

Christina

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Thanks for the update, Christina

Is it a private family ceremony or is it being backed/attended by the respective governments ?

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Thanks for the info, Christina.

I find it very comforting to know that even if Verdun is first and foremost a French mémorial ground, it is not forgotten that the Germand soldier suffered as much in those 300 days!!

I'm looking forward to see that plaque in Verdun on my next visit !!

MM.

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A German family's grief is the same as French family's grief. Great to see that fact acknowledged. May they all Rest in Peace.

-Dave.

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For the first time the name of a German soldier who went missing at Verdun will be commemorated in the Ossuary.

He is Peter Freundl and his plaque will be unveiled together with that of a French soldier, Victor Manassy, on Sonday 9th February at 11.15am.

I wonder how many more families will follow his example?

Christina

Christina

Thanks for the information; I've always assumed that the bones in the Ossuary are likely to be split roughly evenly between French and German so it seems right somehow as we approach the centenary. Is there any information available about where and when Peter Freundl and Victor Manassy fell? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the French and German casualty records.

It just adds to the pull of the place that makes me want to go back.

Pete.

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I wonder if there has been any opposition to this move?

David

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Perhaps I am missing something here but did not the Germans attack at Verdun with the purpose of:-

“The string in France has reached breaking point. A mass break-through - which in any case is beyond our means - is unnecessary. Within our reach there are objectives for the retention of which the French General Staff would be compelled to throw in every man they have. If they do so the forces of France will bleed to death."

Falkenhayn to Kaiser William II

And whilst there can be no logical objection to placing a plaque to a German soldier somewhere on the battlefield is the Ossuary an appropriate place, personally I doubt it.

Norman

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I wonder if there has been any opposition to this move?

David

Yes David opposition by Norman, who does not understand how far the French-German reconciliation in Verdun is going nowadays and who does not understand that 50% of the unidentified bones in the ossuary are from German dead. Also who can not differentiate between bloody inhuman generals' (that sadly existed on all belligerent sides) strategic nonsense and the ordinary soldiers who had no choice than to be slaughtered

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I do understand but I do not subscribe to the simplistic view that "everybody was a victim" and whilst some may feel comfortable with this I wonder how they would feel if this was extended to WW2 or indeed if such a plaque was attached to the Memoriial to the Missing at Thiepval?..

Norman

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Initially, I was going to say that I do not subscribe to the feeling that everyone was a victim either. There were the aggressors and there were the defenders. This is at a basic level. Under closer examination however, one could say that they were both victims but of different things.

The defenders were the victims of the agressors. The agressors were the victims of misguided people leading their country. We have seen it then and since whereby a leader or leaders can mould and manipulate an entire nation and bend them at their will. They can make them believe anything. We saw it then. We have seen it since. I like to think that the main reason history is studied so closely is to prevent us making th same mistakes again. Unfortunately that doesn't always happen. Modern history of other areas of the world reflects examples of mass manipulation.

Today we can chide ourselves for not showing patriotism. We don't fly national flags for fear of offending someone. If we look back with our 21st century eyes, we see a time when it was practically a crime to be unpatriotic. We can look at modern history too whereby it was a crime to be unpatriotic or disloyal to a particular leadership. We are also looking at a time when honour, dishonour, disgrace at any level, including family level was viewed much more seriously. So now we have the ingredients for manipulation to be used.

We have and continue to work hard at reconcilliation. These men were divided by their loyalties to their own causes, their leaders and their countries. However they were united in death. They fell together. They died together. All victims but not of the same thing. And when we deal with those who have died we tend to adhere to what their wishes were and we try to achieve what they would have wanted. We cannot do this with these men we did not know them at a personal level. What would they have wanted? Each man would have had his own views. So even in their death, after almost a century, the poor souls are still being manipulated. They are still victims.

Sure we can find out their names but they are still de-peresonalised and their relatives today, I doubt, would be able to say what the final wishes of that person were. For example, I could not say what my grandfather would have wanted in these circumstances. We can talk of sacrifice for the greater good - is that what we are doing here? They already made that sacrifice so many years ago. Are they now to do that again in death? We use them now to reconcile, bond and cement a modern and positive relationship between our countries - surely that has to be a good thing. There is no doubt that every single man who served, whatever his nationality deserves to be remembered, deserves to be commemorated. When I look at this through my 21st century eyes, I think it is a great thing to do, a positve thing to do on many levels. We cannot possibly know what that individual French or German person would have wanted.

I have given many contradictions here and it is I hope food for thought and not to cause offence but to instigate reflection at a deeper than surface level. One thought that I do hold to try and reconcile all of these things is that it is quite clear from the materiial I have read that much of the time, they actually bore each other no personal malice and respected each others fighting ability and respected each other as soldiers. Perhaps they might, considering honour on their terms (and not ours) consider it an honour that they are remembered together as and where they fell...

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Initially, I was going to say that I do not subscribe to the feeling that everyone was a victim either. There were the aggressors and there were the defenders. This is at a basic level. Under closer examination however, one could say that they were both victims but of different things....

I have given many contradictions here and it is I hope food for thought and not to cause offence but to instigate reflection at a deeper than surface level. One thought that I do hold to try and reconcile all of these things is that it is quite clear from the materiial I have read that much of the time, they actually bore each other no personal malice and respected each others fighting ability and respected each other as soldiers. Perhaps they might, considering honour on their terms (and not ours) consider it an honour that they are remembered together as and where they fell...

Beautifully put

David

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50% of the unidentified bones in the ossuary are from German dead.

Surely not ?

That's a diffident challenge : hence the question mark.

I am fairly confident that the preponderance of the bones there belong to Frenchmen ; the remains of many German dead are no doubt interred there too ; but I would have thought that they represent thousands, rather than the tens of thousands of Frenchmen whose bones are stacked in that place.

It would be interesting to consider the Russian equivalent at Stalingrad. The analogy with Verdun is compelling. How do the Russians feel about commemorating German dead there ?

Phil (PJA))

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It is clear from the replies to this thread that still today a lot of "British" (Commonwealth) don't want to commemorate all the fallen in an equal way and still consider the whole commemoration of the fallen as a commemoration of heroes.

This is totally different in most other countries: France and Germany have a long-lasting tradition to jointly commemorate their dead, symbolized by their joint cemeteries (neighbouring concentration cemeteries made by the French in the early post-war cemeteries but also the joint German-French cemeteries in the Belgian province of Luxemburg). All this culminated in the famous handshake of Mitterand and Kohl on one of the war cemeteries near Verdun in the 1980s.

The Germans made alreaddy joint cemeteries during the war where as much care was given to allied war graves as to their own under the motto "Im Leben ein feind, im Tode vereint" (enemies in life, joint in death). There were cemeteries where the number of non-German dead was greater than the Germans, but still the cemeteries were looked after very thoroughly.

Especially in Germany, their fallen are "used" to spread a message of peace, to call to all people to live together peacefully and to not let this happen again.

This is totally different to Great Britain (and the Commonwealth) where the dead are considered heroes who fell for victory over the evil enemy and where they call upon current generations to go to war again when the country asks for it.

Some people may find it strange but there are probably as much German bones as French bones at the ossuary (perhaps even more German bones as trying to identify German finds wasn't a priority in the early post-war years). Neither the French nor the Germans object to that.

You may want to know that on the war memorials in Alsace-Lorraine, all war dead (whether they had fought in the German army or in the French army) are mentioned. Alsacian soldiers who died in the German army were even given the same rights (a right to be reburied in the homeplace or a right to be reburied onto another nearby French war cemetery) as French soldiers, if the family stayed in France.

And even in Russia a lot of effort is done to reconcile both Germans and Russians by the German Volksbund.

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Quote

It is clear from the replies to this thread that still today a lot of "British" (Commonwealth) don't want to commemorate all the fallen in an equal way and still consider the whole commemoration of the fallen as a commemoration of heroes.

Commemoration of heroes, well nearly correct but I would put it simply as remembrance and gratitude for the bravery, fortitude and sacrifice shown by the Allies in facing and vanquishing the aggressor who subjugated almost the whole of Belgium and vast tracts of France. In my opinion to do otherwise would do great disservice to those of the Allies who fought. Of course reconciliation is important but not at the cost of forgetting or ignoring history.

Norman

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In 2006 I visited the Douamont Ossuary and, if memory serves me, there was some demarcation of the remains based on which sectors of the battlefield they came from.

The Germans obviously did not enjoy the same access to and recovery of their dead in the aftermath of the war. But when the war was being waged, they seemed to have made greater efforts to bury their own dead ( and those of their enemies, too) than the Entente.

I think you will find evidence of this in the way the Australian and British dead were treated and buried by the Germans after Fromelles.

When the Germans recaptured Passchendaele in April 1918, they were shocked and disgusted by the spectacle of tens of thousands of unburied died from the previous autumn. I infer from this that they exerted greater effort than the Allies in this respect when circumstances allowed.

I cannot cite numbers at the moment, but I believe that the Germans succeeded in recovering and burying a significantly higher proportion of their dead from Verdun than did the French. There will be information about this in the German War Graves society literature.

This is why I contend that the bones in the Douamont Ossuary are predominantly French .

Not being adversarial here : happy to be proved wrong.

Incidentally, there has been a BBC feature on its new website about a Russian organisation of volunteers recovering thousands of unknown dead from the battlefield in the northern sector of the front from 1941-45. These remains are all being identified as from the soviet forces, and buried as such. This might have some bearing on what we're discussing here.

If I can learn how to send a link, I will do so.

Phil (PJA)

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Seaforths,

As Rigidus said, beautifully put.

I haven't heard of any opposition at Verdun. The invitation to the ceremony comes from the President of the Ossuary Foundation and the Mayor of Hohenlinden in Bavaria. The Peter Freundl named in it could well be the man in the link posted by Daniel. If he disappeared on 14 July 1916, he was very likely in the Fleury area which is where the Bavarians were at the time. The remains of a German officer were found this year under the steps of the Verdun Memorial when the current refurbishment started in autumn. There must be hundreds out there.

It's impossible to say how many French and Germans there are in the Ossuary. Does it matter? It may have done at the time but I think today that most people would say that it's time to remember both sides. As to a German plaque at Thiepval, I would bet it won't be long before such a request is made.

Christina

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It's the intention - at the time - that matters.

I wish I knew more about this.

When those ossuaries were built - and I've seen those at Kemmel and Souchez - was it the wish of the French people to ensure, as far as possible, that the bones within were of their own countrymen ?

After all, the French flag flies above, and isn't there inscription on the walls about dying for France ?

And even at Verdun, where battle was chaotic and promiscuous, there were clearly defined sectors where specific French units served in their rotation.

That BBC News feature that I alluded to :

bbc.co.uk

BBC News - DIGGING FOR THEIR LIVES : RUSSIA' S VOLUNTEER BODY HUNTERS, by Lucy Ash, 13 January 2014.

Here's another killing ground, with vast numbers of unrecovered dead, with Lord knows how many Germans still out there, but those bodies recovered are all Russian. Might not the same- to a degree - apply to Douamont ?

Phil (PJA)

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It is clear from the replies to this thread that still today a lot of "British" (Commonwealth) don't want to commemorate all the fallen in an equal way and still consider the whole commemoration of the fallen as a commemoration of heroes.

Especially in Germany, their fallen are "used" to spread a message of peace, to call to all people to live together peacefully and to not let this happen again.

This is totally different to Great Britain (and the Commonwealth) where the dead are considered heroes who fell for victory over the evil enemy and where they call upon current generations to go to war again when the country asks for it.

.

I do not believe your comments are true - the vast majority of comments are positive - we must be reading them differently. Or, they are being perceived in a different way because I do not see the intent in the posts that you do. I can see one strong minded individual who holds a different opinion and he is entitled to his own opinion. However, he does not speak for the majority and you seem to have tarred us all with the same brush.

If you want to strive for peace then it takes a gentle persuasion and evidence and not forceful comments to change their outlook and opinion. They also need time to assimilate and accommodate the information - it doesn't happen immediately and you have to accept, it may not happen at all

Your comment regarding the deaths of the fallen being used in Germany for remembrance and a reminder this cannot happen again is not confined to Germany. Why else do you think we take our children to visit the battlefields and cemeteries? Are we not passing on the same message? I think we are. We are most certainly not trying to educate them to go to war again as your comment suggests.

As for the rest of your post, I found it really interesting and educational and I thank you for it because it does give me great pleasure to read of peace and reconciliation.

It is such a shame that your negative comments were not addressed to the individual(s) concerned - if they had to be posted at all. Remember please that persuasion is more peaceful. Much of the rest of your post was persuasive. It is saddening for me that you didn't continue it in the same vein and instead took a snipe at an entire nation - that is provocation my friend - not peace.

Seaforths,

As Rigidus said, beautifully put.

I haven't heard of any opposition at Verdun. The invitation to the ceremony comes from the President of the Ossuary Foundation and the Mayor of Hohenlinden in Bavaria. The Peter Freundl named in it could well be the man in the link posted by Daniel. If he disappeared on 14 July 1916, he was very likely in the Fleury area which is where the Bavarians were at the time. The remains of a German officer were found this year under the steps of the Verdun Memorial when the current refurbishment started in autumn. There must be hundreds out there.

It's impossible to say how many French and Germans there are in the Ossuary. Does it matter? It may have done at the time but I think today that most people would say that it's time to remember both sides. As to a German plaque at Thiepval, I would bet it won't be long before such a request is made.

Christina

Thank you Christina. It is fantastic to hear of the work that has happened and that it continues. It is hugely important that they are all remembered as they would have wanted to be - with honour, dignity and respect. The fact that they fought for different sides does not make any one of them more deserving or less deserving. On their own terms they were soldiers and they were equals and I like to think that they would, in death, want to be treated as equals, commemorated as equals and honoured as equals - because that is what they were and continue to be. They put on the uniform and did what was asked of them and so much more.

I hope that the work does continue jointly and as many are recovered as possible. After all this time, they deserve a final and peaceful resting place where they too can be remembered.

As for a German plaque at Thiepval, that would be something of a legacy we could show all our children with pride and that our ancestors would also be proud that because of their war and what followed on, we took something of their strength and fortitude and used it to make a lasting peace. Yes, they fought on different sides and both sides fought for what they probably believed to be a better world at that time - it was just a different one. We can sit in judgement all we want to but it happened, it can't be un-happened and for that reason, we must educate our future generations carefully to pay respect to ALL of the brave.

I research my ancestors with interest and yes, in my eyes they were all brave and they were all heroes. However, I like to think that while I do that, there is someone in Germany doing the same thing for exactly thee same reasons as me and with exactly the same thoughts about their ancestors too.

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When the Ossuary was consecrated, or " opened" (1932 ?) there must have been press coverage, maybe cinema was involved.

Can any pals point me to pertinent articles which show this ?

It would be interesting to gauge the extent to which reconciliation in anonymous death vied with nationalistic triumphalism in the ceremony that attended the opening.

Above all, was there acknowledgement at the time that the Ossuary was the receptacle of large numbers of German dead ?

Phil (PJA)

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Phil, I can't speak on the ossuary at Verdun but at Bazeilles bodies from both sides were interred in the same ossuary from the outset (there are previous threads on this).

To illustrate AOK4's point, this is the German built cemetery at Bellefontaine (Radan):

post-48281-0-93485800-1390133986_thumb.jpost-48281-0-57430700-1390134001_thumb.j

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Does this sprit of reconciliation between the nations involved in WW1 also apply to WW2 or was in some strange way WW1 deemed to be a big mistake by all concerned who did not really intend to spend four years doing their level best to slaughter each other whilst WW2 was entirely justified from the Allies point of view and there was an acceptance of good and evil and the need to respond to German aggression. I pose this simple question in all seriousness for surely we cannot view the two world wars in isolation although no doubt some will do their level best to do so. As for the comment about plaques commemorating German soldiers either affixed or near to the Memorial at Thiepval that should lead to some robust discussion!

Norman

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Does this sprit of reconciliation between the nations involved in WW1 also apply to WW2 or was in some strange way WW1 deemed to be a big mistake by all concerned who did not really intend to spend four years doing their level best to slaughter each other whilst WW2 was entirely justified from the Allies point of view and there was an acceptance of good and evil and the need to respond to German aggression. I pose this simple question in all seriousness for surely we cannot view the two world wars in isolation although no doubt some will do their level best to do so. As for the comment about plaques commemorating German soldiers either affixed or near to the Memorial at Thiepval that should lead to some robust discussion!

Norman

I agree Norman. In my previous post I made reference to 'their war and the years that followed' and I was implying WW2 and perhaps I should have been more explicit. They were separate wars but the ending of one was to fan the flames for another. Yes of course, reconciliation should be about both wars. We cannot punish people for the actions of their ancestors. If we did then we would have to face the fact that we are not as white as the driven snow ourselves. If that attitude were adopted, many other nationalities would say...and look to yourselves, look at some of the things you did and rightly so.

It goes back to my first post and the mass manipulation of a population. Sure they may have been put there by democratic vote and then they become an autocratic entity. That goes for any government historic or modern - you will be told what to do in varying degrees. I can look to the opinions of my father and my ex-father in law. My father fought throughout the whole of WW2 and bore no malice towards Germany or the German people, only toward those who were guilty of atrocities and that they should be pursued and punished. In contrast my ex-father in law would not buy anything manufactured in Germany or Japan nor did he have a good word to say for Germany/Japan or the German/Japanese people

If we follow the example of one we can and will move forward and will have something positive to show the generations that follow us. On the other hand, if we follow the example of the other, we remain static, stuck in a time-warp of malice directed towards the generations of other nationalities that played no active part in a war other than to rebuild.

I know which path I would rather take and hope that in doing so, my ancestors who were part of both wars would think more of me - because they influenced me directly to be who I am and what I am. There will be those who choose another path - that is entirely their prerogative and they will have their own reasons for doing so.

Discussion on Thiepval should be robust - there will be many different opinions and much division of opinion. I would like to think that such discussion might be tempered with good manners and respect. Sometimes Norman, I strongly disagree with you on some things but that doesn't mean I don't go away and digest what you have said, give it some thought before I decide whether to uphold my original opinion on the matter. So I might not agree with your views but respect the fact that your opinion differs from mine. Unfortunately, discussions sometimes degenerate to a personal level or mud slinging and that is when it is no longer intelligent discussion - just a bun fight.

Edit: to correct typo spelling error.

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Hello,

As a Frenchman I am reading this thread with interest and I can confirm that there are different opinions, different ways of thinking and also to commemorate between us. I am not saying who is right or not, I am just saying that we are different and we do the things differently than some of you do. I find interesting the reference to the Alsace-Lorraine in the AOK4 post (with which I would tend to agree) whereas many comments often forget the Franco-Prussian war which is the starting point to understand the evolution of the relationship between France and Germany.

Sly

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As regards people's feelings at the time of the inauguration of the Ossuary, I don't think I have seen anything about this but there were surely many different levels of feeling. Nationalistic triumphalism would certainly have been there for some, sad remembrance of both sides for others and very mixed feelings in between.


I know that Monseigneur Ginisty, Bishop of Verdun, who travelled the world to raise money for the Ossuary, could not accept that so many men should just lie forgotten on the battlefield, disintegrating slowly as time went by. He and his chaplains made no distinction between the two sides.

I don't remember any German names among those listed in the Ossuary as Patrons and I'm pretty sure there are none. That perhaps says something about feelings after the war. There are no German towns represented among the coats of arms on the outside and I have never read that any German towns or authorities contributed to it. I would be surprised if they were asked. The inclusion of a German name in the Ossuary is a great step. It must have required serious thought on the part of the Directors. I don't know if permission at political level was required but it may have been. I notice that the invitation comes from the President of the Ossuary Foundation and the Mayor of Hohenlinden, so that perhaps says that the politicians were not involved. There may be many reasons for that. I just don't know.

The flag that flies in front of the Ossuary is in the cemetery and the only people buried there fought for France. I can't imagine that a German flag would ever fly there.

Christina

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