Information in Division War Diaries?

[E Wilcock]

Is there anyone who can explain please what information one might expect to find in a Divisional War Diary?

The War Diaries for the 4th Division have now been put on line (I think). But I am considerably confused by the word "Division". And its sub categories.

Which type of divisional war diaries might be relevant to the supply and care of horses/ remounts? Would this be the supply?

When the 4th S Midland Brigade of the RFA (TF) went to the front they initially went to 4th Division. One battery was then split off to the South Midland Division.

My understanding was that the South Midland Division was later renamed 48th Division. There is a War Diary for the South Midland Division, only I previously imagined that was infantry. Are the diaries now released Divisional diaries or is the word being used to designate war Diaries of the component units, e.g. cavalry and infantry Battallions?

[Chris_Baker]

Remount units were not part of a divisional command and as such will not be among the diaries that have been digitised. There may be some mention in the divisional headquarters diary and that of the Assistant Director of Veterinary Services for the division, but it will not amount to much.

The diaries that are now being released in digital form are those of all units within a divisional command, and of the divisional headquarters.

I hope that helps.

I understand that diaries of units, formations, lines of communication troops, etc in France but not in divisional commands (which would include remounts units) will be released in due course but are not likely to be for some time.

[David_Underdown]

There are some diaries for mobile veterinary units and the like as well included in the current release. 4th South Mildland Mounted Brigade should be (though only for the period they spent with 4th Div). This view http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/browse/C138505 shows the sub-series within the catalogue which comprises all the units of 4th Division, on the right are sub-units making up the division, and starts from Div HQ and works it's way down through the various staff branches, then into divisional troops and so on (for some things you may need to click on down into the entry tosee what the unit actually is, as the description is at a lower level of the catalogue, you can then use the back button on your browser to come back to this view). It was only shows 30 entries within the sub-series at a time (use the scroll bar within the entry to move up and down that), so you'll need to click the "Next 30" link to move on to the next portion.

[E Wilcock]

Thank you very much and particularly to David for the link and explanation of how the National Archive catalogue works. I have been slow to grasp this. But have just followed your instructions and you have made me very happy. I may at last be able to find my way round all the war diaries, not just those now on line.

[David_Underdown]

Understanding how (and why) archives organise their records really does help when you're trying to search for something. This blog post by my colleague Andrew Janes may help people think about it in a more general way Do you have archival intelligence? - it provides links to a few other resources too.

[E Wilcock]

I agree David - Nice link. I have worked with no problem in archives elsewhere both in UK and Germany. It has always been the national Archive which defeated me, and not only me but those good people at the archive who tried to help me.

I have research on conscientious objection in WW1 put on hold for the past 20 years or so because I was unable to locate the files at Kew. With the new digitised catalogue and search possibilities I may make another attempt!

[David_Underdown]

MH 47 (which is the surviving tribunal and appeal papers, basically covering Middlesex) has been digitised and will be online soon. The regular Thursday lunchtime talk at Kew a week on Thursday, 30 January 2pm, is about this record series (I see you are in London, but don't know how practical it is to for you to be there). These talks are generally made available as podcasts, either via the TNA website - look for the mediaplayer, or on iTunes. More details, http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/events/digitising-mh-47.htm

[E Wilcock]

Thank you, I have put it in the diary. Unfortunately those records are not new, though new on line.

But using your hierarchy system have already looked at KV - though they weed and destroy so much. One can never be sure whether the file number one is after still exists somewhere and might be released one happy day. Nor is it always easy to know where to look - which government department did what in WW1.

My experience as a researcher is that one is always looking for information that "isnt there" because, if it were there and obvious, historians would have written it up already.

It is the same problem regardless of whether it is the supply of horses (technical term Remounts was clearly unknown to those we consulted in 2002 at the War Museum and the IWM.) or objectors. Where the police or military authorities are going round hoovering up local horses and local pacifists, one has no idea who was feeding the info to London, then sending out the orders, making the selection and deciding what to do next with the animals and men.

[David_Underdown]

No they're not new, but the lack of cataloguing has made them difficult to use up until now, and the transcription has helped categorise the reasons for appeals and so on.

We're aware of the difficulties of tracking "Machinery of Government" changes as changes of departmental responsibilities are formally known. Some colleagues did start some work on visualisations, described here, http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/visualising-government-spaghetti-sketching-and-compressing-time/, but I'm not sure of the current status of this work.

[David_Underdown]

Not quite conscientious objection, but it turns out that the Ministry of Education also had some powers to exempt (conditionally) some categories of those proceeding to higher education from conscription. Just goes to show that records can turn up in slightly unexpected places http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/schoolboys-uniform/

[WilliamRev]

May I at this point remind people of the existance of the Brigade War Diaries at Kew? The ones I have examined whilst at Kew (so far exclusively from the British 3rd Infantry Division) have been full of maps, handwritten reports, and sundry other documents.

When going through the complete 8th Brigade war diary I found several volumes which were stuck-down with rotted and crispy pink ribbon (which I had to take to a Kew employee to open), which clearly hadn't been looked at since the Official Historian [James Edmonds] had them in the 1920s; I found it very exciting to be looking at information that hasn't been looked at by a historian in modern times. There must be tens of thousands of such pages of Brigade war diaries in the National Archives, and I would urge everyone to explore them further, and not just look at the battalion war diaries. I found some completely new information on the 8th Brigade's successful assault on 26th Sept '17 at Zonnebeke which doesn't appear in the battalion war diaries.

William

[David_Underdown]

And all included in the newly digitised material

[WilliamRev]

And all included in the newly digitised material

That's fantastic news! I must say, some of the brigade war diaries are a mess - bits of paper and sketch maps just stuffed any old how, so they can be a bit of a adventure.

William

[David_Underdown]

Everything was resorted prior to digitisation, so hopefully they're in a reasonable order in that sense. Operation War Diary should ultimately make it easier to discover these things as well as they'll all be tagged up in the end.

[E Wilcock]

Went to Kew today to fill in a gap I my reading of War Diaries. And found vital months were missing from the folders where they ought to have been. No one could tell me how to report this and I can't find a contact link on the website either. It isn't a catalogue error. It isn't a website error. One needs a simple form to fill out to report papers and pages missing. Next thing is to check the War Diary list on this forum to see if any one has transcriptions.

[David_Underdown]

If you're in the building just explain at one of the desks. There is a "contact us" link at the bottom of the main webpage, though you can go straight to Discovery specific form via http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/contact/contactform.asp?id=19. Some material was lost before it was transferred to the PRO anyway.

[stiletto_33853]

David,

In all fairness to you and the staff at Kew, there does not seem to be people around that have the necessary military knowledge in order to sort things out when brought to their attention, i.e. on two occasions I have pointed out papers that were in a KRRC war diary that belonged in a Rifle Brigade diary. How they came to be in the wrong diary in the first place could just highlight this lack of military knowledge??? and yet the papers in question clearly state Rifle Brigade. Anyway the following week I had to use the same diary to finish photographing it and blow me if the papers I had seperated from the KRRC diary on the staff's request if the self same papers were not placed back in the KRRC diary. One can only assume that the word Rifle in the wording left staff with the one conclusion, that being KRRC and just points out the lack of knowledge and wasted hours of my own time sorting the mess out for the staff.

Some papers from the 9th Rifle Brigade diary have ended up in the 16th Rifle Brigade diary, having pointed this out once again I got the excuse that the papers had been interpolated, however the 16th RB diary has been scanned and the 9th RB papers that belong in the 9th RB diary are there as a record in the 16th RB diary, this leaves someone purchasing the 16th RB diary with some false information and someone who wants the 9th RB diary missing information.

On another occasion I used another battalions war diary (not RB or KRRC but 14th Division), having not completed photographing this diary I tried to complete it the following week. On requesting the same diary the following week there were huge amounts missing that had been there the previous week!!!! Having checked with the desk to see if a member of staff was working on the diary, the answer was no!!!

In another case that was brought up on this forum some time ago, I seem to remember from the 4th Division, a certain battalion had pages from an entirely different battalion placed in it, all had been scanned and was being charged for in both battalions cases.

Although a good thing in the long run, if it is not done accurately in the first place there seems little point and if we are not allowed to see the original diaries then future academics, historians and relatives will not get the full picture and I must add that I hate the pdf black and white format these diaries were originally scanned in.

Andy

[David_Underdown]

I'm not quite clear if you're referring to the scans that were previously there, or the new ones, with some of the points you raise?

Everything was resorted before the current scanning exercise, so these things will hopefully have been picked up during that phase. If not, if you can give exact catalogue references, (for both diaries, where stuff is missing, and where it's ended up) I'll try to get it checked out.

The previous versions were (I think) from old microfilm, and as you say there were known to have been some issues with things being in the wrong place. It won't be completely impossible to view the originals, but permission is on a case by case basis. If there's clearly something wrong with the images, then it's unlikely permission will be proved (or if a section appears to be missing that you know has been there previously). All the reading room staff (I'm not one of them) have their own specialisms, if these sort of things come up, it's probably worth asking to speak to one of the military specialists. With the number of documents produced every day, mix-ups between staff will occur from time to time

[E Wilcock]

David - Your guidance has been invaluable.

I e-mailed details of the missing diaries to the PRO this morning and asked for an acknowledgment.

The link you suggest (which is where I was pointed to by the staff yesterday) is for reporting catalogue errors or problems with ordering. It says clearly that it specifically relates to "Discovery" . When papers seem to be missing or a file disappears which is only part of a box, one really needs a different type of report. And different help because it is a physical object that is lost, not a question of adjusting computer input.

A whole folder of "our" Brigade diary went missing some years ago and the staff went to work on the problem by the time we had had lunch, we got a message saying it had been found.

[David_Underdown]

Well otherwise the only thing would be the general enquiries form http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/contact/contactform.asp?id=1 - but the Discovery one is still probably the one that's most likely to end up with the right people. Who did you actually speak to, was it at the document orders counter, or one of the other desks?

[E Wilcock]

I am an obedient student. The talk yesterday on COs (and other objectors) records on the new site was very interesting and useful. Thank you, David.

But I also had my best ever day in the archive - my first with Division war diaries - Thanks to your guidance on using the catalogue hierarchy system, I found chunks of information I have been missing till now: on the medical service, horse health, supplies, remounts and horse casualties, It may even be that when one of my diarists from a South Midland Brigade says that he walked round with a vet, I may be able to put a name to that person. I havent yet found the diary of the mobile unit attached to my Brigade - perhaps they didnt have one. But I did read one such example.

One of the things made clear by one embattled vet is how hard it was for them to get the material to provide for the horses. May be because the overall command had to give first priority to the men? It also seems that contrary to War Horse, commanding officers did not necessarily know very much about the training and care of horses. That may have been menial stuff previously left to grooms. I came across a request that supply horses should be trained to cross trench bridges - a trench was duly dug and a bridge borrowed for the purpose. The horses were unperturbed. Reminded me of teaching horses today to go across footpath bridges over motor ways.

I would highly recommend anyone interested in any unit in WW1 to browse the Diaries of the Service units supplying their unit. They vary from writer to writer, as always - but there is a wealth of detail - and if you are looking for a wounded man without a surviving service record, the RAMC diary for that Division may well have something even though the Brigade diary does not.

Like any researcher, I have had many blank days but yesterday was really exciting.