Cpl Thomas Brislen M.M. 14287

[Terry Carter]

Hi folks

Need help please. I am visiting the Somme next weekend, on the way down we are stopping off at Lapugnoy Cemetery (near Bethune) to visit the grave of Liverpudlian, Cpl Thomas Brislen M.M. who was killed with the 4th Kings Liverpool on 11 April, 1918.

The guy whose grandfather it is has never been to the battlefields before and so I am hoping to get a bit of info to make the trip memorable for him.

That is where, I hope, some one can help.

His London Gazette for the MM is 20 October, 1916. I presume this is for gallantry on the Somme. Does anyone know how he might have got the MM and wherabouts his battalion was in action at the time?

He was killed on 11 April, 1918. Again can anyone provide details of where the battalion was when this happened.

Thanks in anticipation

Regards

Terry

[Max]

Hello Terry

The 4th kings Liverpools were 98th Bde, 33rd Division at the time of Thomas Breslans death. I can't find anything specific on the Bn at this time but if you follow the link below it will take you to a website about 1/Middlesex who were also in the 98th Brigade and may be of help.

http://freespace.virgin.net/howard.anderson/German1918.htm

Andy

[Old Chap]

Terry,

There is a picture and if i remember a write up regarding your man in the Liverpool Echo. I'm pretty sure it's in the 13/ November, 1915 edition.

Bill

[Promenade]

Terry, Bill,

Bill has made a typo this should read Liverpool Echo 13/11/16 following the award of his MM. By the way he enlisted 1/9/14 in Liverpool - his home city.

Joe

[Terry Carter]

I know I am being cheeky, but would any person be able to get a copy of this report please thats in the Liverpool Echo. I would cover any costs.

Cheers

Terry

[JulianB]

Terry,

I'm interested in 4/KLR too, my gt uncle was in it and KIA at High Wood on 18.8.1916.

The Bn lost a lot of people that day, but there may have been individual acts of heroism. Your chap may have been involved, a Gazette notification in October is about the right time lapse. Any newspaper reports may be wary about where and exactly what for, the award was for, but Joe (Promenade) may be your best bet for anyone in KLR.

the War Diary of the 4/KLR is in WO 95/2427 and, that of the 98th Inf Bde at WO 95/2424. There may be something in Wyrall's History as well.

Julian

[Promenade]

Terry,

Cpl Brislen does not appear in the Regimental History and has just one mention in the 4 KLR War Diary as follows:

Huppy (Near Abbeville) – 10th November – 4th December 1916 (Billets)

26th Nov - Showers - Major General Pinney Commanding 33rd Div distributed Medal Ribbons to the following officers, NCOs and men - Military Cross to CAPT. R. J. PATEY, 2nd LIEUT. A. CORBRIDGE, Military Medal to 11123 C.S.M. J. CARMICHAEL, 11777 C.S.M. W. FRASER, 15876 C.Q.M.S. S. STEWART, 18228 Cpl. A. HARN, 18033 L/Cpl. H. McKIBBIN, 9534 Pte. D. BOSTOCK, 11829 Pte. W. McCLOUD, 18886 Pte. E. LLOYD, 14854 Pte. C. CAFFREY, 14281 Pte. W. FOSTER, 13180 Pte. W. KENNY, 14287 Pte. T. BRISLEN –

It would be hard to pin down exactly where and when Brislen won the MM with any certainty.

Regards

Joe

[Terry Carter]

Thanks all for the replies.

Joe is the info in the War Diary for the 4th Kings the July/August 1916 the same as can be found in Ray Westlakes British Battalions on the Somme, Or is there a bit more on movements etc.

I already have the 33 Div, 19/98/100 War Diaries for July and August.

I am going to contact the Library at the Liverpool Echo on Monday to find out If I can get a copy of his photo that was published October, 1916.

Cheers

Terry

If anyone else has got info please do not hesitate to get in touch

[Promenade]

Terry,

The following are the complete movements of the Bn in July/Aug 1916 taken directly from the War Diary - not sure how they compare with Ray's list as I do not have a copy of his book.

By the way do not expect a good copy from the Liverpool Echo as unfortunately a lot of the films are heavily scratched through over use.

Joe

Beuvry – 21st June – 2nd July 1916 (Billets)

Cuinchy – 3rd – 7th July 1916 (Trenches)

Gonnehem – 8th July 1916 (Stayed)

Rainneville – 9th – 10th July 1916 (Stayed)

Vaux-Sur-Somme – 11th 12th 1916 (Stayed)

Ville – Sous – Corbie – 13th July 1916 (Stayed)

Meaulte – 14th –15th July 1916 (Billets)

Front Line – 16th – 17th July 1916 (Trenches)

Caterpillar Wood – 18th –19th July 1916 (Bivouaced)

Front Line – 20th July 1916 (Trenches)

Caterpillar Wood – 21st July 1916 (Bivouaced)

Dernancourt – 22nd July – 6th August 1916 (Billets)

Mametz Wood – 7th August 1916 (Stayed)

Fricourt Wood – 8th – 12th August 1916 (Stayed)

Bazentin – Le –Grand – 13th – 18th August 1916 (Trenches)

Mametz Wood – 19th August 1916 (Stayed)

Fricourt Wood – 20th – 25th August 1916 (Billets)

Bazentin – Le – Grand (Carlton Trench) – 26th – 31st August 1916 (Trenches)

[Old Chap]

Terry,

I can copy the article next time i'm in Liverpool. It maybe a few weeks time though.

Has the MM and plaque been reunited with the family by any chance? I recall there being an advert on the www1 photo site by the family i think. I sent a mail to the site informing them as to who the seller was but heard nothing.

Bill

[Terry Carter]

Thanks Bill

I was hoping to get something by Thursday as we are off to the Somme on Friday.I will still contact the paper tomorrow. If I have no joy there perhaps you could get them for me at a later date.

I have never met the guy, who is coming with us, before. So I do not know anything about the medals and plaques etc. He is a late replacement for someone who had to drop out. But as soon as I was told about his grandfather (T Brislen MM)

it has made the forthcoming weekend even more special. He does not know it yet but we are planning our walk to follow the footsteps of the 98th Brigade and the 4th King Liverpools from when the formed up South of Mametz Wood on 14 July, 1916, to the actions at High Wood and the attack on Wood Lane on 18 August, 1916.

Regards

Terry

[Old Chap]

Terry,

Fantastic. It sounds like it will be a very memorable trip indeed. I now live in Bolton and due to work i won't be able to travel to Liverpool during the next few weeks.

Please pm if you want me to copy and post the article for you. Liverpool archives office tel. no. 0151 233 5817. Some kind hearted person there may help you out. Good luck.

Bill

[JulianB]

Terry,

I'd be very interested in seeing any photographs you may take of trhe High Wood / Wood Lane area with the action on 18th Aug 1916 in mind. Apart from the official history (Edmonds 1932 vol2, pp194-5), Terry Norman's book(1989 edn p.189), and the Bn War Diary (whose descr is copied word for word in Wyrall p.317) there is also quite a good account in the report written by the CO 98 Bde (This is what I've copied out from my study of my family in 1WW):

A report by the CO 98th Bde, Brig Gen FM Carleton, on the action on the 18th (WO 95/2424), recorded that the attack began at 2.45 PM and that the objective was about 1800 yards distant. Regarding the 4th King’s, he wrote;

"The 4th King’s and 1/4th Suffolks advanced to the attack from the jumping off point at zero hour, and crept forward close to the artillery barrage fire. They seem to have got well forward and to have crept close up to the barrage. In getting forward the 4th King’s suffered heavily, particularly in Officers, a large proportion of the latter being put out of action."

There followed an account of the 1/4th Suffolks reaching the objective, then

"The 4th King’s had been severely handled in the preliminary rush, and do not appear to have made much way beyond the edge of the artillery barrage and it is certain that none of this regiment occupied this trench."

At 5.50pm the CO 4th King’s (Beall) asked for reinforcements, but when he was instructed to rally and carry out a further assault he replied that his numbers were too weak.

I'm live in London and I do need to go back to Colindale to look up various bits and pieces. Although I am unlikely to have the time for the next few weeks, I'd be happy to look up the relevant Echo article for you when I do go - it should be better quality than microfilms in Liverpool because one can look up the originals. I have ordered photocopies before but I want to find out if one can use a digital camera there - does anyone know !?

Julian

[Terry Carter]

Julian

I will take loads of digital piccies and get in touch on my return

Terry

[Promenade]

Terry,

No Casualties are listed in the 4 KLR War Diary for 11/4/18. The following is taken from the Kings History for the periods of interest to you:

Joe

THE BATTLE OF MESSINES, 1918: 10TH 11TH APRIL [1918]

Although not engaged with the enemy the 4th King's (33rd Division) were in the area of the battle, as laid down by the Report of the Battles Nomenclature Committee. The 4th Battalion left Ambrines on the 10th of April, by train for Strazeele, and detrained at Caestre on the 11th. They marched first to bivouacs near Fletre, thence at 6.30 p.m. to Ravelsberg Camp, where they bivouacked for the night.

THE BATTLE OF BAILLEUL, 13TH 15TH APRIL [1918]

On the night of the 12th of April, the British line north of the La Bassée Canal ran through Givenchy and Festubert, bending back in a north westerly direction to just east of Hinges, thence along the Canal to the crossing south of Marquois; from the latter point the line ran northerly, west of Calonne and Merville, then slightly north east past the eastern outskirts of Vieux Berqutn and Merris, turning then almost due east to La Creche whence it ran north east again, east of Neuve Eghse and Wulverghem to Wytschaete, thence to the Comines Canal east of Hollebeke.

On the afternoon of the 12th sharp fighting had taken place about Neuve Eglise, the enemy maintaining his pressure in this sector By the early morning of the 13th he had forced his way into the village but was ejected by the 33rd and 49th Divisions, who took a number of prisoners.

It was not, however, until the 15th that the 4th King's came into action. From Ravelsburg Camp, where the battalion had arrived on the 11th, the King's men moved, on the 12th, to Dranoutre, Kemmel Hill, back to Dranoutre, and thence to Bailleul Aerodrome. On the 13th the battalion moved to Meteren in support of the 19th Infantry Brigade, having one other rank killed and ten wounded by shell fire. On the 14th the King's moved up in support of the 1st Battalion, The Queen's, Second Lieut. F. Makinson being killed. At 9 p.m. that night they held a position along the road just south of Meteren, but of what happened on the 15th there are no records. The battalion narrative states that "the next six hours in this position were fairly quiet," but the C.O. says "I regret very much, owing to very heavy casualties amongst officers, I am not in a position to give as much detail as I would like." (For the first three days the battalion was temporarily commanded by Capt. G. N. B. Warburton. This gallant officer was killed on the 17th of April).

Bailleul fell on the 15th and our troops, heavily attacked from the east and south, were compelled to fall back to positions between Meteren and Dranoutre.

Of the 4th King's, Second Lieuts. F. H. Dawson, W. H. Jones, E. Capstick, W. M. N. Elmes and H. R. Anderson were wounded.

On the 16th (at various hours) the enemy made a number of strong local attacks on the Meteren Wytschaete front which, for the most part, were repulsed with heavy loss to him. He succeeded, however, after much confused and heavy fighting, in establishing himself in both villages and, although gallant attempts were made to turn him out, he remained in possession of his gains when night fell.

The 4th King's throughout the day were heavily engaged. In their position along the road running south from Meteren, they had the 5th Scottish Rifles on their right, and troops of the Tank Corps on their left. At 5 a.m. the O.C., "C" Company, reported that the Tank Corps troops had fallen back, and two more platoons were sent up to try and fill the gap but did not succeed in reaching the position before the enemy launched his attack. Coming on in great numbers he succeeded in penetrating the gap left by the Tank Corps. The right of the King's stood firm, but the left was compelled to fall back, reforming and taking up part of the line which now ran through Meteren Village. It was then discovered that the left front Company ("C") had practically disappeared. The new position was taken up by two platoons from another company.

At 11 a.m. an officer patrol discovered the enemy strongly established in Meteren.

The remainder of the day (so far as the 4th King's were concerned) was comparatively quiet and consolidation was carried out. At 11 a.m. on the 16th the enemy again attacked the battalion, and was again repulsed with heavy loss. But by nightfall on this date Vieux Berquin, Merris, Meteren, Bailleul, Neuve Eglise and Wytschaete were in his hands, and he was preparing for a big attack on the high ground at Dranoutre and Mont Kemmel. (`The fighting on the 16th of April has been completely overlooked by the Battles Nomenclature Committee. (The fighting on the 16th of April has been completely overlooked by the Battles Nomenclature Committee).

Also taken from the Kings History detailing the actions of 4 KLR from 14/7/16 to 31/7/16:

Meanwhile the 33rd Division had entered into the battle, and although the 4th King's were not one of the attacking battalions, they were, however, well deserving of the battle honour, seeing that their casualties were many and that they eventually took over the front line trenches during the operations.

The 33rd Division had been ordered to attack and capture the German line between High Wood and the Martinpuich Bazentin le Petit railway; the 101st Brigade was attacking on the right and the 98th Brigade on the left. The attacking battalions of the latter were the 1st Middlesex, with the 1/4th Suffolks in support and the Argyll and Sutherland Highianders and the 4th King's in reserve.

The 98th Brigade moved from Meaulte to Becordel on r4th July after the battle had begun. From 3.45 that morning the 4th King's had been "at 1 2 hours' notice" to move, but it was 12.30 p.m. before the brigade arrived at Becordel, and 7 p.m. before the King's men reached the old German front line south of Fricourt.

At 5 a.m. on 15th the battalion again moved forward, to reserve positions just west of Bazentin le Petit Wood, and there dug in. At 9 a.m. the Middlesex attacked (it is curious that although other divisions are mentioned in the official despatches and in "Sir Douglas Haig's Despatches" (Boraston), no mention is made of the attack by the 33rd Division) the enemy but little progress was made, the enemy's artillery, machine-gun and rifle fire being very heavy. That night the King's relieved the 1/4th Suffolks and one company of the Middlesex in the front line, from the crossroads north of Bazentin le Petit to 400 yards south.

The King's lost on this day two other ranks killed, two officers (Lieut. and Adjutant Hughes and Second Lieut. C. O. H. Atkin) and twenty five other ranks wounded, and one man missing.

The situation on the 16th remained unchanged, though the King's men dug a new line from the cross roads to the cemetery and occupied it. Rain fell during the day and the trenches were in a miserable state. One man was killed and five were wounded; Second Lieut. Atkin died of his wounds. The 17th was similarly a wet day, and again the enemy's shell fire was severe, five more other ranks being killed and fifteen wounded.

At night the 2nd Royal Welch Fusiliers filed into the trenches and relieved the 4th King's, who moved back to the valley east of Caterpillar Wood where they dug in from Flatiron Copse to Sabot Copse. But there was little security in this position for two officers (Second Lieuts. White and Spencer) and seventeen other ranks were wounded.

The results of the Battle of Bazentin Ridge are thus given in the official despatches: "In spite of a resolute resistance and many counter attacks, in which the enemy had suffered severely, our line was definitely established from Maltz Horn Farm where we met the French left, northwards along the eastern edge of Trônes Wood to Longueval, thence westwards from Bazentin le Grand to the northern corner of Bazentin le Petit and Bazentin le Petit Wood, and westwards again from the southern face of Poziêres to the north of Ovillers. Posts were established at Arrow Head Copse and Waterlot Farm, while we had troops thrown forward in Delville Wood and towards High Wood, though these positions were not yet secure."

Three miles of the enemy's second main system of defence had been captured with 2,000 prisoners and much war material.

THE SUBSEQUENT ATTACK ON HIGH WOOD: 20TH 25TH JULY

On the 20th July the 33rd Division obtained a footing in High Wood, the attack being carried out by the 19th Infantry Brigade. The 98th Brigade cooperated, the Argylls attacking the enemy's trenches west of the wood. The 4th King's, though not engaged in the operations as assaulting troops, nevertheless were in the line and carried out (at least) one very creditable performance.

The King's men again had taken over front line trenches on the night of 19th July, on this occasion all four companies occupying a position from the cross roads north of Bazentin le Petit to the Quarry. The night was lively, the enemy's gun fire being heavy, during which Lieut. Hutchings and twenty two men were wounded. High Wood was attacked at 3.35 a.m. on 20th, and at 1.25 p.m. the 4th King's were ordered to establish communication with those in the wood by means of a chain of runners. It sounds simple enough - the maintenance of this human chain of message bearers - but it was extremely difficult. The whole area was under heavy shell fire, and more than one runner was shot down, his place being taken immediately by another man. The first message received by Brigade Headquarters (400 yards south of Bazentin le-Petit Wood) was at 4.20 p.m., after which hour communication was maintained with units in High Wood (only a footing had been obtained in the wood, which was not finally captured until 15th September). "This," records the Brigade Diary, "was largely due to the excellent work and perseverance of Capt. Beck, who was in command of the company detailed for this work." Unfortunately, there are no records of the company of the 4th King's commanded by Capt. Beck. But they were gallant fellows!

On the night of 20th the King's men were again relieved and again marched back to bivouacs at Caterpillar Wood; the losses throughout the day were one man killed, twenty six wounded, and three missing. Their bivouacs were heavily shelled with lachrymatory shells on 21st, and when they were finally relieved (at about 11.30 p.m.) and marched back six miles to Dernancourt, three more other ranks had been killed, seventeen wounded and five gassed.

For the remainder of July the battalion was billeted in Dernancourt.

[Anthony Bagshaw]

I may be very wrong, but weren't his MM and Memorial Plaque on eBay a few months ago?

If i remember rightly the seller struggled to sell them.

Please correct me if i'm very wrong!!

[Old Chap]

The MM and plaque first appeared at Dix, Noonan and Web, Military Antiques, Speedbid and then eBay. I just hope the family have them back.

Bill

[Anthony Bagshaw]

I just hope the family have them back

Didn't the seller say he had acquired them from the family who had recently sold his trio??

It's a real shame that families sell medals but i suppose if they didn't we wouldn't be able to collect and enjoy them as we do.

[Stephen Nulty]

Guys

I work just around the corner from the Liverpol Echo office and can go there tomorrow (Tuesday) if you want anything picking up. There's a post office over the road so I can then mail it guaranteed next day delivery.

If you want me to do this, just reply to this posting and let me know exactly what you weat.

Regards

Steve

[Stephen Nulty]

Just to bring this up to date, and prevent any Pals from wasting time, I have spoken to Terry on the phone and I have also arranged a session at the Records Office for tomorrow afternoon to get a copy of the article.

SN

[Terry Carter]

Hi all

I would like to thank you all for the answers I have received on this thread. I have to especially thank Joe for the time and effort he put into typing the info he supplied. And Stephen for offering to visit the Liverpool Echo for me.

Thanks

Terry

[shaunr68]

Need help please.  I am visiting the Somme next weekend, on the way down we are stopping off at Lapugnoy Cemetery (near Bethune) to visit the grave of Liverpudlian, Cpl Thomas Brislen M.M. who was killed with the 4th Kings Liverpool on 11 April, 1918.

<snip>

His London Gazette for the MM is 20 October, 1916. I presume this is for gallantry on the Somme. Does anyone know how  he might have got the MM and wherabouts  his battalion was in action at the time?

Hi. New here

I've just been searching these fine forums for information on the 4th King's Liverpool and my Great Grandfather Henry McKibbin.

On Cpl Brislen; I read in another thread of a troop train explosion on the date of his death 11 April 1918:

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showt...=0entry155626

On the Military Medal: My GGF is listed in one of the posts above, and his MM was awarded following a trench raid on 28 October 1916, quite close to Cpl Brislen's London Gazette entry.

Here's a scan of a document that I have:

http://www.jude-n-shaun.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/HM.jpg

Hope that helps...

Since I'm new here, sorry if this is a dumb question, has anyone got access to more information about my Great Grandfather, anything at all since all I have is that piece of paper? I have found his entry in the London Gazette, on the National Archives site, and the 1901 census. Although I'm in Sheffield my parents live in Liverpool so if there is anywhere I should visit over there I can do on my next trip "home"...

EDIT: Don't want to hijack the thread, if I should start a new one just let me know

Thanks

[Terry Carter]

Your quite welcome to join this thread and if it means more info for the both of us, That would be good. Best of luck in your research.

Terry

[Promenade]

Hello,

All I can add about your g grandfather is that he enlisted in Liverpool in 4 KLR on 1/9/14 and that he was posted to France 4/3/15 with his Battalion. Can you tell us a little more about him?

I have a note of three other Mckibbins who served with the Regt during the Great War - did he have any siblings?

Joe

[shaunr68]

All I can add about your g grandfather is that he enlisted in Liverpool in 4 KLR on 1/9/14 and that he was posted to France 4/3/15 with his Battalion. Can you tell us a little more about him?

    I have a note of three other Mckibbins who served with the Regt during the Great War - did he have any siblings?

Joe

Thank you so much for the info - anything is most helpful. I found a Henry McKibbin in Liverpool on the 1901 Census but that lists him as 3 years old. Apparently my grandmother said he was young when he signed up but 3 years old in 1901 would have made him 18 in 1916. He signed up as a Private and the note from the medal case shows him as a Sergeant in late 1916, but is it likely that it is not the same person as the one on the 1901 census? Is 18 years old rather young for a Sergeant during WW1. There is also the chance that he was Irish since that part of my family was of Irish origin, but I'm not sure whether he moved to England as a child or his parents moved before his birth. There is a Henry McKibbin in the London Gazette archives in the Royal Irish, but the document I have said 4th King's Liverpool - could he have transferred? Haven't searched the Irish census yet.

What I have not got round to yet is downloading the subscription content for the census and the medal cards on the National Archives site. That is definitely my next step. Once I have some more information I'll post back here...Have to say that I spent a few hours browsing here today and am most impressed with the helpful and friendly demeanour shown on these forums.

I have a great opportunity in that his daughter, my grandmother, is still alive. But I'm hesitant to ask about such things. Does anyone else feel kind of morbid asking family about military history? I got the feeling while asking my parents about their fathers' service in WW2 (one I think went ashore on Gold Beach on D-Day, the other a merchant seaman on the Murmansk convoys) that it was something that people wanted to put behind them and in those days was not something openly discussed. I just feel uncomfortable asking people about awful events in history in that it is somehow taboo. I know next to nothing of my Great Grandfather but he might well have gone through hell on earth during WW1 and his family might have had a bad time as a result. Do I take the plunge and ask my grandmother about him? I know for sure that if I don't, then when she is gone I will regret it forever.

I'm just wary of how to approach this and don't want to sound morbid really and would appreciate some input on how others have approached it...

Thoughts?

Cheers

Shaun