Gordon1314 Posted 13 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 January , 2014 Just had a thought (which we should have had before). Perhaps he didn't serve overseas with the Argyll's? The 3rd Battalion was a Reserve Battalion based in Edinburgh in 1916 and used for training/holding men who went to other Battalions as reinforcements. 3rd (Reserve) Battalion August 1914 : at Stirling. A depot/training unit, it moved on mobilisation to Woolwich, going on in May 1915 to Edinburgh and in March 1917 to Dreghorn. Moved to Kinsale in November 1917. Have you tried the Argyll's museum? Rgds Hi there Tim know this sounds daft ,i have been to the Castle to see the museum many times,ive not enquired at the museum !!!! I'll take your suggestion on board. Can you say why the Units moved from Woolwich,Edinburgh,Dreghorn then Kinsale ? There is also as younsay a possibility that he didnt serve overseas. I had been told by a long gone relative that he had been injured and didnt keep well and was an alcholic. I did find that he was on a ship called the Orion which left from Tilsbury going to Australia in 1948 but i dont know where he had been staying after the Great War. There were storys of his son my Grandfather having turned him away from the house from being drunk all a bit dramatic and as i say "storys" Tim Morning all,just leaving for work will post more info from there might be a wee while but will do,Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 13 January , 2014 Share Posted 13 January , 2014 The SS Orion was a P&O liner used to take out the £10 Poms emigrating to Australia from the port of Tilbury in Essex, not far from where I used to lice in Southend. So by 1948 your William had managed to get down to Tilbury, presumably from Scotland during those 30 years from the end of WW1, and surviving the bombings of WW2.... Looks like he didn't have a phone or he might turn up in the directories, even perhaps electoral rolls... None of which is relevant to what he did WW1 but sometimes working back (and forward) from known points helps find a link... Is it possible to consider.. 1) being born out of wedlock, could his mother have placed him in an orphanage or Workhouse, where he grew up, knowing of his mother but resenting not being part of her family? 2) Variation of 1) Could he have taken the Rutherford name until being forced to surface as Baxter in order to travel to Australia, which is why we can't find him? Just ideas but thinking outside the box... We know he WAS about, we just can't find him! Heirhunters where are you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 13 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 January , 2014 Gordon and I have now exchanged email addresses... will post up pics as soon as I get them. Regards Ian Sorry Ian at work thought id be able to post you the Certificate ......but been a bit manic will have to wait till i return home likely about 9.30 our time Sincere apologies. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 13 January , 2014 Share Posted 13 January , 2014 No problem, I'm always here... Regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 13 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 January , 2014 The SS Orion was a P&O liner used to take out the £10 Poms emigrating to Australia from the port of Tilbury in Essex, not far from where I used to lice in Southend. So by 1948 your William had managed to get down to Tilbury, presumably from Scotland during those 30 years from the end of WW1, and surviving the bombings of WW2.... Looks like he didn't have a phone or he might turn up in the directories, even perhaps electoral rolls... None of which is relevant to what he did WW1 but sometimes working back (and forward) from known points helps find a link... Is it possible to consider.. 1) being born out of wedlock, could his mother have placed him in an orphanage or Workhouse, where he grew up, knowing of his mother but resenting not being part of her family? 2) Variation of 1) Could he have taken the Rutherford name until being forced to surface as Baxter in order to travel to Australia, which is why we can't find him? Just ideas but thinking outside the box... We know he WAS about, we just can't find him! Heirhunters where are you!! Hi there Kevin,i think you could be on the the right road,i'll start to look for a Boy William Rutherford in the Kilsyth area,i know he wasnt with his Mothers parents as they were already Dead here is the info on her parents William Baxter-36318.William married Frances Moye or Moy-36319 on 29 Mar 1862 in Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland. Frances Moye or Moy-36319 [Parents] was born in 1836. She died on 7 Jul 1866 in Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland. She married William Baxter-36318 on 29 Mar 1862 in Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland. They had the following children: F i Elisabeth Baxter-36317 was born on 30 May 1863 in Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland. M ii William Baxter-39447 was born in 1865 in Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland. He died on 3 Feb 1866 in Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland. What a saga, i'm sorry to take up everyone's time its so much appreciated ,i was just really keen on finding out where he may have fought so that i could perhaps go there and try to imagine what those poor brave souls went through.If i dont find out what he did i will still be going as soon as i can find the right time to go. My daughter has been to Pashendale with the school and seen the Mennin gate heard the story's from the guides seen the gravestones stood respectfully to hear the last post,which many a watery eyed child on their visit wont forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 13 January , 2014 Share Posted 13 January , 2014 Don't be sorry, you want to find answers and if anyone can, the Pals here have almost mystical powers! Let's take a step further back... With several Baxter name families in Kilsyth, it would be strange if they weren't closely related... Is there no way of trying with any of their descendants to see if a William appeared with a bit of a tale? Are you able to contact a history society in or near Kilsyth or their library may have archives back to WW1 where there might be some mention in late 1915 through to September 1916 that might carry a mention of him being wounded? Presumably he had to be home late 1915/early '16 for GGranma to conceive. To be brutal, he may have discovered that GGMa may not have been faithful to her wedding vows, enough for him to turn away from her and consequently the family. Easy enough then for the children to think he'd left them, not knowing any different.... As for visiting the Western Front, I can understand the pull of wanting to know, but we need to crack the code as to what he may have done and with whom. His Regimental Number seems only to link with pre War service yet you have his number on the Birth Certificate. Could the details on the Birth Cert relate to when he was a soldier, not that he was one at the time? It's often seen that on "official" documents the job was made more grandiose for effect rather than truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eairicbloodaxe Posted 13 January , 2014 Share Posted 13 January , 2014 OK, here's the birth certificate Gordon tried to upload before... Regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 January , 2014 Share Posted 13 January , 2014 Not 3/526 is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbw541 Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Looks like "Private 3rd Battalion Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders ?/526" To me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Thx Ian great job !!. As you so rightly say Kevin it would seem logical that the surname should have a common bond LOL! You are right about the arrival of a son at the time when GGranpa may have been away on active duty, i hadn't thought of that,but i'm guessing that old GGrampa Baxter may have thought otherwise !!!!That in fact could be a feasible explanation. The young Robert Baxter died at a very young age about 3 yrs old so i dont know what he looked like mmmmhhh! what a shame. It does leave a lot of questions perhaps i might never know,i remember my Father saying i shouldnt look up my family tree as there were plenty Skeletons in the closet,seems he may have known the real truth,which sadly i might never get to the bottom of. Just in case i don't hear from anyone else,thank you all, its been a Very big help to me and given me plenty to read about. i am going to try the Australia Archives as well, i know he died over there in a place called Liverpool New South Wales in 1957,maybe he met someone and had a family,one things for sure,the Great war as all wars do,effects family's in a ways we never would have imagined,family's are torn to pieces that make us the way we are today and that's one of the many reasons we will Always Remember them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Glad its not just me LoL !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 The number 1 written 1916 is above the line,perhaps its just a / instead of a number . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 You can buy what I assume is his Death Certificate online here for $31 AUD. The reference below is the only match from the information you have. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births 19768/1957 BAXTER WILLIAM WILLIAM ELIZABETH LIVERPOOL Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 You can buy his Death Certificate online here for $31 AUD. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births19768/1957 BAXTER WILLIAM WILLIAM ELIZABETHLIVERPOOL Rgds Tim Cheers!!! Tim. Amazing find i feel i'm getting nearer to finding him through everyone's Kind help,cant believe i never came here years ago....WOW!!!! All the very Best . Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 There's a few more clues on that Birth Certificate... Many Scottish families observe the convention of including maternal surnames in their children. The child is Robert Whyte Gillies Baxter. They're not the usual Christian names are they, but ancestors names. Note that the mothers name is Margaret Sinclair Baxter, but underneath she is shown as M S Gillies, and date of marriage 16 June 1911. So those are family names to help trace back, Baxter being his parents, Gillies for his mothers parents, Sinclair her grandparents and the Whyte could be his (grand)parents... Their home was Low Barton in Kilsyth.... ... and that's NOT a "1" in his service Number, just look at the 191* dates, clearly a simple stroke, without the squiggles for what may be a "3" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 14 January , 2014 Admin Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Curioser and curioiser but like the OP I’m sure that’s a 7 on the certificate I can't see a 3 and it doesn't look like any other '1' on the document! Unfortunately the Argylls were particularly arcane when it came t numbering so we have 7385 joined January 1900 in the 1st/2nd Bn. then in 1908 a new series for the Regulars. Those who volunteered for the New Army or Service Battalions were prefixed ’S’. S/7525 L/Cpl C Scott was in the 11th Bn KIA 10/08/1916 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/191389/ whereas Sjt 7522 William Clark was in the 2nd Bn. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/760398/ as he was aged 34 and in a Regular Bn I think it’s safe to assume he was a pre-war enlistment. I don’t think such an assumption can be made for Pte Baxter as the ’S’ distinction may have escaped the Registrar especially as his occupation is given as coal miner. (Acknowledgement as ever to Paul Nixon. http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/argyll-sutherland-highlanders-1881-1914.html). Pte. Scott was also entitled to two medals, William Clark on the other hand went overseas as a private on the 10th August 1914 confirming he was a regular or reservist. As William Baxter was in Chester Hospital on the 18th September 1916 when he registered the birth he was probably sick or wounded. That leaves the problem as to why William Baxter is not in the medal cards when family history says he had 'two medals'. There are a number of 7526s - S/7526 is a Pte John Rough entitlement a pair. Then in a TF Bn you have 7526 Donald Sherwood (renumbered 1917 to 278980) ignoring George Johnson who also had the number 7526 (another TF man)we have 3/7526 John White again entitlement a pair. A 3 prefix probably indicates the 3rd Bn and this man is also on the SWB Rolls but I can’t find him there. There are, as noted at post 10, three William Baxter in the mics none of them have that number. Pte 526 Robert Watson went overseas 19/12/14 which suggests a regular in the 1st Bn who landed in France on the 20th. I wonder if there is some dishonesty/subterfuge going on, or perhaps as a miner he was on the 3rd Bns strength but in the 'W' Reserve? Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Again WOW! Don't know if this helps but i do remember trying on his Kilt, it was The Argyll's Tartan but what was different was the pleats at the back had a thin white bands running on the verticle seems,might be insignificant. i would have been about 15 when i saw it last my dad said it was a "war Kilt", there were two medals as the ribbons were different,again they have gone. What an amount of info you guys are turning up a big thanks again. Cheers Ken,wish i knew what was going on !!! maybe his records dissapeared in the fire i read about when the place the records were held were bombed???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 I have looked for Chester hospital on the Net but cant find anything of significance,i guess records have long since gone ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 14 January , 2014 Admin Share Posted 14 January , 2014 There was a neurological hospital in Cheshire which would have dealt with 'shellshock' but that was in Stockport http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals_uk.htm However you will see from the linked page soldiers were often put in civilian hospitals and a 'Hospital' (in military terms) could encompass several sites. The message as ever is don't give up, there has to be an answer even if it's an informed guess. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Ah! The kilt! I well remember my Pipe Band days and the kilt I was issued with was ex MoD McKenzie tartan.... I'd swear the weave was so dense as to be almost bullet proof (although there was a nasty round darn over the "vitals").... Can I go back to where you said "the eldest son had to be the man of the family" because father had (just?) left them? You then say the eldest was born in 1912, so what happened in the gap between say 1916 and 1926 when he was 14? I'm not being funny about what you state, but that what you have been told seems now to be "gilding the lily" so that the real truth is that much harder to find. We apparently have no trace of him from 1916 till 1948, yet he must have been "somewhere". Surely no one escapes the taxman! I've lost track of when GGpa was supposedly born, but to be married in 1911, then that puts his birth around 1890 or so... therefore he was 58 in 1948, and would he have been eligible for the assisted passage scheme to Australia, as within 10 years he'd have been drawing a pension... But getting back to matters WW1 - whatever the first symbol is, it's clearly a 526 and I'll begin to agree with others that it's likely to be a stylised "7" as the downstroke cuts below the line, as does the "9" whereas the writer is careful for everything else to stop on the line... it's either that or a superscript 11/526. Does the 11th battalion A&SH give any hint of progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 14 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2014 Ah! The kilt! I well remember my Pipe Band days and the kilt I was issued with was ex MoD McKenzie tartan.... I'd swear the weave was so dense as to be almost bullet proof (although there was a nasty round darn over the "vitals").... Can I go back to where you said "the eldest son had to be the man of the family" because father had (just?) left them? You then say the eldest was born in 1912, so what happened in the gap between say 1916 and 1926 when he was 14? I'm not being funny about what you state, but that what you have been told seems now to be "gilding the lily" so that the real truth is that much harder to find. We apparently have no trace of him from 1916 till 1948, yet he must have been "somewhere". Surely no one escapes the taxman! I've lost track of when GGpa was supposedly born, but to be married in 1911, then that puts his birth around 1890 or so... therefore he was 58 in 1948, and would he have been eligible for the assisted passage scheme to Australia, as within 10 years he'd have been drawing a pension... But getting back to matters WW1 - whatever the first symbol is, it's clearly a 526 and I'll begin to agree with others that it's likely to be a stylised "7" as the downstroke cuts below the line, as does the "9" whereas the writer is careful for everything else to stop on the line... it's either that or a superscript 11/526. Does the 11th battalion A&SH give any hint of progress? Hi Kevin,back from work appreciate your query and help cant blame the confusion its been driving me crazy for years LOL . My Great Grandfather was born 30th of May 1885 in Kilsyth My Grandfather was the first Born he was Born On 4th Dec 1911 his parents were Married June 19th 1911 THAT SAME YEAR! Ive got their Original Marriage certificate. From 1916 onwards id a BIG mystery i have no idea where he was just told by friends and long dead relatives that he had come back but was made not welcome and he had taken to the drink ....but that is one side of the story. I found his name on the passenger List of the SS Orion on the 9th of June 1948 coming back to Australia his age isdown as 62 and that his country of last residence is Australia,so its possible he immigrated to Australia after the War. Today i paid for a Death Certificate which might be his, its of a W Baxter Died 1957 in Liverpool New South Wales whose parents were named William and Elizabeth,i hope that its him and possibly will get some more info. Tim from this Board helped me track him. AS have all of you all in a period of a few days!!!! Amazing !!! Detectives are surely working on this Forum i'm so Happy but sad i dont know what went on During the War,perhaps he didn't go abroad, i ve no idea where the Zulu Spear came from or The Vaguely remembered medals. I could also add i have a Brown Bess Musket in the house ,no idea about that either. Another spanner in the works is that GGrampas Mother ...Elizabeth Baxter's Mother was married to an Irish Soldier called Francis Moy Francis Moy-39696.Francis married Elisabeth Campbell-39697. Elisabeth Campbell-39697.Elisabeth married Francis Moy-39696. They had the following children: F i Frances Moye or Moy-36319 William Baxter-36318.William married Frances Moye or Moy-36319 on 29 Mar 1862 in Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland. Frances Moye or Moy-36319 [Parents] was born in 1836. She died on 7 Jul 1866 in Kilsyth, Stirling, Scotland. She married William Baxter-36318 on 29 Mar 1862 in Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland. But Best stop there,just looking for my GGrampas exploit if at all. Thx Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 14 January , 2014 Share Posted 14 January , 2014 There are a few possibilities I have been kicking around inside my head while following this thread. Firstly, I noted that Elizabeth's parents had died so there is no question of them taking in William. It is possible that he might have been taken in by another family member or as Kevin pointed out, put into an orphanage. Also, knowing the abysmal transcriptions of Ancestry coupled with the mistakes that were made with medal cards, a number of possibilities could have occurred: His occupation as a miner might have singled him out for certain types of work and he could have been moved to RE or Pioneer battalion of the Argylls. With the former, his service number would have changed and with the latter, he would have been renumbered eventually. His medal card may not show his original number (which I believe to be 7526) and so making him difficult to trace. He could have conceivably been with the 3rd at the time the birth was registered but his service number could be that of a battalion at the front. He might have been back to undertake some training with the 3rd or wounded and working with the 3rd at that time. If he recovered from his wounds, he could have been returned to his original battalion. Or, to another unit and again he would have been renumbered in 1917 anyhow. The A & S medal roll for the 15 star might yield some information as might the BWM & V medal roll for them and the latter might show his transfer to another unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 15 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 January , 2014 There are a few possibilities I have been kicking around inside my head while following this thread. Firstly, I noted that Elizabeth's parents had died so there is no question of them taking in William. It is possible that he might have been taken in by another family member or as Kevin pointed out, put into an orphanage. Also, knowing the abysmal transcriptions of Ancestry coupled with the mistakes that were made with medal cards, a number of possibilities could have occurred: His occupation as a miner might have singled him out for certain types of work and he could have been moved to RE or Pioneer battalion of the Argylls. With the former, his service number would have changed and with the latter, he would have been renumbered eventually. His medal card may not show his original number (which I believe to be 7526) and so making him difficult to trace. He could have conceivably been with the 3rd at the time the birth was registered but his service number could be that of a battalion at the front. He might have been back to undertake some training with the 3rd or wounded and working with the 3rd at that time. If he recovered from his wounds, he could have been returned to his original battalion. Or, to another unit and again he would have been renumbered in 1917 anyhow. The A & S medal roll for the 15 star might yield some information as might the BWM & V medal roll for them and the latter might show his transfer to another unit. Thankyou too,as you say with him being a miner perhaps there was a use for him at the front,i do appreciate your help and vision, silly though it seem i hadn't thought till you mentioned that miners where very much in use,what a thought as if mining wasn't hard enough. I have a lot of info thanks to all, to start a more methodical way of research on this subject,so great full for the help from your good self and others on this forum. There was a neurological hospital in Cheshire which would have dealt with 'shellshock' but that was in Stockport http://www.1914-1918.net/hospitals_uk.htm However you will see from the linked page soldiers were often put in civilian hospitals and a 'Hospital' (in military terms) could encompass several sites. The message as ever is don't give up, there has to be an answer even if it's an informed guess. Ken Cheers Ken,much appreciated for your support. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 15 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 January , 2014 Curioser and curioiser but like the OP I’m sure that’s a 7 on the certificate I can't see a 3 and it doesn't look like any other '1' on the document! Unfortunately the Argylls were particularly arcane when it came t numbering so we have 7385 joined January 1900 in the 1st/2nd Bn. then in 1908 a new series for the Regulars. Those who volunteered for the New Army or Service Battalions were prefixed ’S’. S/7525 L/Cpl C Scott was in the 11th Bn KIA 10/08/1916 http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/191389/ whereas Sjt 7522 William Clark was in the 2nd Bn. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/760398/ as he was aged 34 and in a Regular Bn I think it’s safe to assume he was a pre-war enlistment. I don’t think such an assumption can be made for Pte Baxter as the ’S’ distinction may have escaped the Registrar especially as his occupation is given as coal miner. (Acknowledgement as ever to Paul Nixon. http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/argyll-sutherland-highlanders-1881-1914.html). Pte. Scott was also entitled to two medals, William Clark on the other hand went overseas as a private on the 10th August 1914 confirming he was a regular or reservist. As William Baxter was in Chester Hospital on the 18th September 1916 when he registered the birth he was probably sick or wounded. That leaves the problem as to why William Baxter is not in the medal cards when family history says he had 'two medals'. There are a number of 7526s - S/7526 is a Pte John Rough entitlement a pair. Then in a TF Bn you have 7526 Donald Sherwood (renumbered 1917 to 278980) ignoring George Johnson who also had the number 7526 (another TF man)we have 3/7526 John White again entitlement a pair. A 3 prefix probably indicates the 3rd Bn and this man is also on the SWB Rolls but I can’t find him there. There are, as noted at post 10, three William Baxter in the mics none of them have that number. Pte 526 Robert Watson went overseas 19/12/14 which suggests a regular in the 1st Bn who landed in France on the 20th. I wonder if there is some dishonesty/subterfuge going on, or perhaps as a miner he was on the 3rd Bns strength but in the 'W' Reserve? Ken Sorry for the late reply Ken i have been reading many of the reply's and forgot to respond to this one you sent, boy o boy!! What an incredible amount of Info you've got there, i will be copying down your response and will be forever grateful for what you've found. Perhaps through a little more time when i receive His death certificate it might open up more info to his past,maybe not but either way,i feel the help from the people here on this forum has been extraordinary,so thoughtful and above all helpful. As i mentioned early on i have met a lot of WW2 vets as in my line of work it tends to be an older generation that i see. There story's are priceless and humbling. i look up their Old Company's,ships,Squadrons on the Net as many don't have that luxury. The look in their eye and at times with a tear makes the hair in the back of your head stand and its hard not to tear up a well. Its such a simple thing to do after asking if they would like me to to a we bit of research......nowhere near as much as you guys do. i tend to look for photos of the face and places etc. Thanks Again. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1314 Posted 20 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2017 I believe now that his name and initials were W.R Baxter the R being Rutherford. I have his death Certificate and will post it Soon. Thx all Merry xmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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