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Dating a SMLE


ADMIRAL BENBOW

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I have recently acquired a SMLE and would appreciate any assistance in dating and identifying the particular mark.

The rifle is of BSA manufacture, marked BSA & Co. Serial No. 598** (five digits).

It has a magazine cut off plate fitted, an adjustable foresight blade, and offset rear sight protector tabs but no windage adjustment.

The bolt has a matching number and the cocking piece is rectangular rather than round.

There is no obvious date of manufacture to be seen.

It has been suggested that it may be 1920's vintage but I have no way of knowing if this is correct. Any enlightenment would be eagerly received.

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You may find the site given below of some help, without pictures it's difficult to tell. The fact that it still has a magazine cut off would indicate it's maybe a pre 1918 Mk III or Mk IV. I've a 1942 SMLE with rectangular cocking piece, but no cut off, still excellent to shoot even out to 600yds. You'll probably get some more informed members answering your question, but if you haven't seen the site below there is a mine of information available.

Doug.

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Dating%20your%20rifle.htm

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I have recently acquired a SMLE and would appreciate any assistance in dating and identifying the particular mark.

It has a magazine cut off plate fitted, an adjustable foresight blade, and offset rear sight protector tabs but no windage adjustment.

The bolt has a matching number and the cocking piece is rectangular rather than round.

You probably have a BSA rifle made to military specifications, but produced for the commercial market. BSA were showing such a rifle in 1920s and 1930s sales catalogues, the accompanying bayonets were also offered.

You may also find that there is a ' crown/BM ' mark on your rifle, which was the ' Military View ' proof mark showing that the rifle had been made to military specifications, and denoting that in the time of war the rifle was suitable for requisition by Army Volunteer or Territorial Units.

There should also be the BSA ' Commercial ' logo of 3 piled rifles stamped on your rifle.

I am not sure about the rectangular " cocking piece ", I would expect that to be the older ' round ' type, so that may not be original to the rifle, and may be a later modification.

Regards,

LF

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I too would suggest it is probably inter-war.

The BSA logo LF refers to is probably on the barrel knox form (look at the top of the rifle behind the rear sight you will see a semi circular cut-out in the rear of the upper handguard this is where the barrel mark is usually stamped)

One clue as to the date of manufacture may be under the upper handguard if the barrel is dated (they often are) you can remove the upper hand guard by carefully levering it off (it is held in place by a spring clip) you will probably find quite a few stampings under here. Dates are usually stamped lower down on the lefthand side of the rifle in the format '23 (for 1923 etc)

Observed data suggests BSA used an L prefix for serial numbers in the 1920s and 30s as you do not report one does this mean yours does not have a serial prefix?

Chris

Edit

Here are two version of the BSA stacked rifle logo - one on a siamese rifle and the other on a 1939 production rifle (military but using this barrel)

post-14525-0-19376000-1389129684_thumb.j

post-14525-0-72868600-1389129957_thumb.j

and a (poor) picture showing barrel dating - of course if it is not the original barrel this will not be much help!

post-14525-0-61882000-1389129951_thumb.j

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I believe rectangular cocking pieces were introduced during the war?

TT

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I believe rectangular cocking pieces were introduced during the war?

TT

Yes (Aug 5th 1916 approval) but in the interwar period there often appears to have been a return to the original design. The changes were largely production simplifications. There are other versions produced in WWII and post WWII in India. They are interchangeable and over the years frequently interchanged!

Chris

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The serial number being without a prefix would suggest a possible manufacture date in 1919 or the early 1920's. Apparently BSA used no prefix before the L series.

Cheers, S>S

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It has been suggested that it may be 1920's vintage but I have no way of knowing if this is correct. Any enlightenment would be eagerly received.

Attached are two copies of BSA's Commercial Sales Catalogue, both showing their ' SMLE ' rifle for sale.

The lighter copy ( left ) is their 1919 dated Catalogue, and the darker copy ( right ) is their mid-1930s Catalogue, and that pretty much covers the possible date range for your rifle, as Chris has said, you need to examine your rifle for any possible date markings shown on the barrel.

Regards,

LF

post-63666-0-25854100-1389137371_thumb.j

post-63666-0-10864800-1389137399_thumb.j

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The serial number being without a prefix would suggest a possible manufacture date in 1919 or the early 1920's. Apparently BSA used no prefix before the L series.

Cheers, S>S

Are you referring to BSA Commercial rifles only I assume S>S?

All of my military BSAs from 1907 up through WWII (13 examples) have prefixes with the exception of one 1918 example.

Prefixes are also recorded for these years in Stratton (pp123-4)

Chris

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No all BSA rifles actually. Skennerton has 'no prefix' serials coming prior to the L series from 1919 onwards. If you can find a 1919 made BSA, that may shed some light.?

EDIT. Here is a LINK which may be of interest. Shows another BSA rifle with a 'no prefix' serial within the same 59*** series. You won't get much closer than that.!

Cheers, S>S

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OK so maybe there is a difference between the military rifle and commercial rifle serial numbering procedures, when it comes to BSA production of SMLE's.?

Anyway, it seems this particular puzzle is solved, with that serial number being part of a "known serial block" being made for the Gulf States/Bahrain contract.

That would then date this rifle to the 1930's when it was made as part of a large order for rifles placed through the UK Government Crown office by the above.

Couple more rifles from that Bahrain contract serial block shown HERE and HERE

Cheers, S>S

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Good find S>S. I was about to suggest the OP check with Thunderbox who has excellent knowledge on these contract blocks and I see is one of the responders in the gunboards threat you link to.

Cheers

Chris

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A BSA commercial with a 5-digit number starting with "5" is one of the "Bahrain" contract rifles.

This is a fairly large batch of rifles originally sold to the Gulf States (or however they were termed at the time) in the 1930s. These rifles came back onto the surplus markets a few years back and are a well-known specific batch. Lots have been de-activated, many cleaned up into really good shooting rifles.

The rifles themselves vary from very worn to almost mint in condition. However they are examples of probably the best-made No1s produced - peak quality 1930s BSA, with no wartime compromises. Underneath the oil-soaked black finish, the wood is usually straight grain selected walnut.

The models are excellent specimens of the British inter-war specification for the No1 - a slightly modified version of No1 MkIII. Hence they have cut-off, brass marking disk and narrow pattern front piling swivel. The brass butt disk usually has a single rack number in large font.

382363761.jpg

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Thank you all for the information that you have provided. I have found it to be very helpful.

The rifle in question has very nice light walnut woodwork pretty similar to the top one in Thunderbox's photo, but there is no sign of there ever being a brass marking disc in the butt.

I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to know whether the front piling swivel is narrow or otherwise.

I would like to take the opportunity, as a novice, to ask one more question. - Why is the protective tab on the RHS of the rear sight offset?

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I would like to take the opportunity, as a novice, to ask one more question. - Why is the protective tab on the RHS of the rear sight offset?

Because on the original rear sights they were windage (L>R) adjustable and you needed to be able to get your fingers in there to adjust them. (there was a little wheel).

Post WWII Indian produced SMLEs did away with this and made the rear sight protector symmetrical but the offset was retained on all British and Australian produced rifles up to the end of production.

Earlier protectors had ovals machined into them to reduce weight, this was dispensed with in wartime production.

Pics of various rear sights to follow.

Chris

post-14525-0-26476300-1389287697_thumb.j

A = protector attached to upper handguard

B = early rear sight with windage wheel

C = "Standard" SMLE MkIII*

D = Indian 7.62mm 2A1

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I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to know whether the front piling swivel is narrow or otherwise.

Narrow on left, normal on right.

ed4v.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Can someone advise how to remove the wood to see the date on the barrel near the chamber. Which end should be levered and what tool is best?

Thanks

TT

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The upper handguard is held in place by fairly strong double spring clips.

It is usually possible to grip the handguard (from above) and pull it off straight upwards, but it is usually easier to lever it off (rear first) by inserting a thin lever under the rear of the handguard (the semi circular cut out) and levering upwards. The danger is splintering the thin fingers on the front of the handguard.

I will take some pictures to show what you are dealing with.

Chris

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Thanks Chris. I will await images. The reason I ask is I have two smles (both deacs). They are a BSA and an Enfield. Both are dated 1917 below the bolt. Wondering if barrels will match? The Enfield is pre fixed J and the BSA G.

TT

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OK so here goes ....I am using a spare receiver/barrel and hanguard to illustrate.

The spring clip is quite strong but once it is eased up slightly so it is gripping the "sides" of the barrel it can be lifted off upwards. The danger is putting too much pressure on the thin wood fingers. If the spring has lost some strength it is often possible to pull the hangguard straight up and off, if a lever is needed just use it to break the initial grip then pull upwards avoiding pressure on the thin fingers.

So here is the handguard and spring clip.

post-14525-0-40601200-1390191007_thumb.j

and here it is in situ (with forend removed) the problem is with the forend in place there is a danger of putting too much pressure on the thin fingers of wood because their ends are the fulcrum against which you are levering..

post-14525-0-07261800-1390191008_thumb.j

Here is a thin screwdriver inserted under the upper handguard and GENTLY levering upwards until the spring reaches the midpoint.

post-14525-0-75003300-1390191007_thumb.j

I do this gripping the handguard and pulling straight upwards to minimize pressure on the fingers and as soon as spring gives I pull straight up and away from the body.

post-14525-0-36080200-1390191008_thumb.j

Hope this helps.
Chris

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Many thanks. Appreciate your time sorting the reply.

TT

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Managed to remove the hand gaurd (made easier as the delicate "fingers" have been sawn off long ago. The barrells on both bear 17 dates which match the guns themselves.

Thanks

TT

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Yep the absence of the fingers makes it much less nerve-wracking! It's a very practical modification!

FYI I have never seen photographic evidence of this practice (cutting off the fingers) in WWI it seems to have been largely a WWII/post WWII Indian practice although I have had people tell me it was done in the UK service too. Although it is sometimes hard to match the colour replacement upper handguards can be found pretty easily should you wish to replace them, including NOS ones which can, with a little care, be stained to match, although a perfect match is hard to obtain.

Chris

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Thanks Chris,

Will leave as they are as they are clearly original and as you say matching the wood will be hard. The butts on both show evidence of repairs with nw base spliced onto one and sections on the other...part of the rifles long hard service I supose. Too many crashes on the parade ground!!

Pics to follow.

TT

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