John J Pickles.

[Kathleen6690]

Can anyone help me decipher the medal/remarks bit on this please?

[johnboy]

They give the Medal Roll numbers. The remark about returned is cut off on your image.

[Kathleen6690]

Cut off?

They give the Medal Roll numbers. The remark about returned is cut off on your image.

Cut off?

[johnboy]

The writing begins 'returned' but the rest of the line has been cut off in you image.

[Kathleen6690]

The bit in brackets doesn't count then? This is the image the National Archives gave me.

(17HB K R) 8153

The writing begins 'returned' but the rest of the line has been cut off in you image.

[johnboy]

Sorry. Had my page set at 125%!!

I don't know what the abbreviations mean. Someone should come along and help.

Sometimes medals were returned because addresses had changed.

[spof]

It is (1743 KR) which is King's Regulation 1743. The medals were sent to the man but were returned. This could be either to corredst an error on them such as his rank or spelling of his name or the Army not knowing his address e.g. If he had moved and not given the Army the new address. In this case, the medals would have been held for 10 years and then broken up if he still couldn't be traced.

[Kathleen6690]

Aha, very well. Thank you!

It is (1743 KR) which is King's Regulation 1743. The medals were sent to the man but were returned. This could be either to corredst an error on them such as his rank or spelling of his name or the Army not knowing his address e.g. If he had moved and not given the Army the new address. In this case, the medals would have been held for 10 years and then broken up if he still couldn't be traced.

It is (1743 KR) which is King's Regulation 1743. The medals were sent to the man but were returned. This could be either to corredst an error on them such as his rank or spelling of his name or the Army not knowing his address e.g. If he had moved and not given the Army the new address. In this case, the medals would have been held for 10 years and then broken up if he still couldn't be traced.

But is this to say sorry that he was awarded the Victory and British Medals.

Now all I need to find out is where he lived when he registered to see if he is my man... any idea about how I find that out?

[spof]

Once he was in the Army, they would have known where to find him so the address used was usually the one given for his next of kin - wife/father/mother. You could look fir him or the family in the 1911 census and cross check that with the Abesnt Voters Lists if they survive for his area.

[johnboy]

But is this to say sorry that he was awarded the Victory and British Medals.

He qualified for the medals but they were returned. As has been suggested, they could have been engraved wrongly or gone to the wrong address.

The medals were issued some time after the war ended. The mother of one of my relatives who was killed applied for them late 1920.

[sotonmate]

I would say that the ref 8153/Adt.covers the amendment of said medals and they were then returned.

[johnboy]

Adt. =adjusted, adjustment?

[Kathleen6690]

Once he was in the Army, they would have known where to find him so the address used was usually the one given for his next of kin - wife/father/mother. You could look fir him or the family in the 1911 census and cross check that with the Abesnt Voters Lists if they survive for his area.

The gentleman I am researching did indeed survive, and I have his personal details, but I do not know whether this is indeed him because J Pickles has varius options, is there any certainty, where would I be able to find the address he gave when he signed up?

[johnboy]

1911 Census?

A NOK Address may be on bottom of MIC The bit that says Correspondence.

[Blackblue]

Is this one of the other brothers Kathleen?

[johnboy]

What other brothers?

[Blackblue]

1911 Census

John Jagga Pickles 59 Lucy Pickles 58 Philip Dobson Pickles 28 John Jagge Pickles 22 Harold Dobson Pickles 19 Charles Emest Pickles 17

Clifford Pickles Funeral Notice

Article Date: 29 December 1916

DR. C.C. PICKLES OF EARBY

Dr. Clifford Crawshaw Pickles died suddenly on Friday at the house of his father, Dr. John J. Pickles, in Camp Road, Leeds, at the age of 30. He was educated at the Leeds Grammar School and the Leeds University. From April to July, 1915, he served in France as a captain in the R.A.M.C., bur owing to ill-health he was invalided out of the service in October of that year. He then succeeded in the practice at Earby of his brother, the late Dr. P.G. Pickles, who was lost in the Mediterranean last April. He was married to Miss Dorothy Wilkinson, of Boston Spa, last June, and three of his brothers are now serving, two as medical men in the Navy and Army.

The funeral was on Tuesday at Lawnswood, Leeds. The service was conducted by the Rev. Canon J. Longbottom, and at its close three volleys were fired over the grave by a firing party from Pontefract, under the command of Capt. Hill, and the 'Last Post' was sounded. The bearers were the following R.A.M.C. officers from the 2nd Northern General Hospital:-Major J.K. Jamieson, Capt. W. Cough, Capt. A. Gough, Capt. W.M. Mumby, Lieut. C.H. Sedgwick, and Lieut. Child. Among the wreaths sent was one from the officers of the West Riding Field Ambulance. The mourners included:-

Mrs. Clifford Pickles (widow), Dr. and Mrs. J.J. Pickles (father and mother), Dr. J.J. Pickles, jun., Capt. H.D. Pickles, R.A.M.C. (T), and Gunner C.E. Pickles, R.F.A. (brothers), Mr. and Mrs. Charles Wilkinson (father and mother-in-law), Dr. Joseph Dobson (uncle), Lieut-Col. J.F. Dodson, Capt. D.F. Dobson, and Mr. W. Broadhead (cousins), Mr. E.F. Wilkinson, Mr. R. Wilkinson and Lance-Corpl. G. Wilkinson (brothers-in-law), Miss Sarah Carrack, Mrs. Wells, Lieut.-Col. W. Thompson, Major R. Lawford Knaggs, and Captain A. Richardson (Leeds General Infirmary), Capt. J.R. Wynne-Edwards and Mr. R. Wilson (Leeds Grammar School), Dr. and Mrs. J. Holmes, Dr. J.J. Anning, Mr. Richard Jackson, Mr. H. Wild, Mr. E.D.H. Rowntree, and Mr. Arthur Hanson.

[kenf48]

The gentleman I am researching did indeed survive, and I have his personal details, but I do not know whether this is indeed him because J Pickles has varius options, is there any certainty, where would I be able to find the address he gave when he signed up?

TNA have only copied the front of the cards - Ancestry copied the back as well, this one is blank so you have all the information on the card. Unfortunately without a service record there is no certainty this is your man, or that the man you are researching even served in the armed forces.

There are two possibilities regarding the soldier on this card. Either he originally enlisted in the West Yorkshire Regiment as a regular soldier around 1893 (see Paul Nixon's site http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/west-yorkshire-regiment-1st-2nd.html 3534 was aged 15 on enlistment therefore born about 1878/4066 was aged 18) or he was a member of the Territorial Force (which tends towards a local connection- e.g. Leeds Bradford,York or round about?). He may have transferred to the Labour Corps before the renumbering of the TF or it may be his new number is simply not not shown on the card, e.g. 3748 was with the 1/7th and kia on 01/07/1916; 3799 was with the 1/8th.

I can't find another card for the 14 Star so the latter seems the most likely, however the TF was renumbered in March 1917 and although I'm no expert I believe his transfer to the Labour Corps was later in 1917 around September/October (I believe there is a more accurate list available in Ivor Lee's book on the Labour Corps). If this is the only card it sans he did not serve overseas until after 31/12/1915.

The mic also indicates he is on the Labour Corps Roll which means they issued his medals (though they would be inscribed to the West Yorkshire Regt). It is therefore a bit of a puzzle when he joined the Gloucester Regiment. There is an outside chance the Roll will show his original Battalion but these are not available online. There is a full guide to interpreting these cards on the parent site the LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/campaignmedals.html

I'd suggest the strongest indication as to whether or not this is your man would be his age and marital status or, as suggested at post 9 above the AVL if it has survived (not the man the AVL - not all have been kept).

Local newspapers also published volunteers, especially in the early days and many towns/churches produced Rolls of Honour that included those who served as well as those who died.

Ken

EDIT I see from the above there is a Leeds connection so that supports the TF hypothesis however if the man you are researching is Dr J. J. Pickles I'd be very surprised if this was his medal card! As the account above states two brothers are serving as medical men, one in the Army and one in the Navy as H.D. was in the Army I guess J.J. was the Naval man and you must look elsewhere for his record.

[Kathleen6690]

Aha, what is missing in this one here is that Clifford C had another brother, William Norman Pickles, who served in the navy, on the HMS Macedonia I believe. Harold was in the army then and Philip had died, so I would believe J Jagger must have also been in the navy, because I am slightly sure Charles did not serve. Though not too sure as to why.

1911 Census

John Jagga Pickles 59 Lucy Pickles 58 Philip Dobson Pickles 28 John Jagge Pickles 22 Harold Dobson Pickles 19 Charles Emest Pickles 17

Clifford Pickles Funeral Notice

Article Date: 29 December 1916

DR. C.C. PICKLES OF EARBY

Dr. Clifford Crawshaw Pickles died suddenly on Friday at the house of his father, Dr. John J. Pickles, in Camp Road, Leeds, at the age of 30. He was educated at the Leeds Grammar School and the Leeds University. From April to July, 1915, he served in France as a captain in the R.A.M.C., bur owing to ill-health he was invalided out of the service in October of that year. He then succeeded in the practice at Earby of his brother, the late Dr. P.G. Pickles, who was lost in the Mediterranean last April. He was married to Miss Dorothy Wilkinson, of Boston Spa, last June, and three of his brothers are now serving, two as medical men in the Navy and Army.

The funeral was on Tuesday at Lawnswood, Leeds. The service was conducted by the Rev. Canon J. Longbottom, and at its close three volleys were fired over the grave by a firing party from Pontefract, under the command of Capt. Hill, and the 'Last Post' was sounded. The bearers were the following R.A.M.C. officers from the 2nd Northern General Hospital:-Major J.K. Jamieson, Capt. W. Cough, Capt. A. Gough, Capt. W.M. Mumby, Lieut. C.H. Sedgwick, and Lieut. Child. Among the wreaths sent was one from the officers of the West Riding Field Ambulance. The mourners included:-

Mrs. Clifford Pickles (widow), Dr. and Mrs. J.J. Pickles (father and mother), Dr. J.J. Pickles, jun., Capt. H.D. Pickles, R.A.M.C. (T), and Gunner C.E. Pickles, R.F.A. (brothers), Mr. and Mrs. Charles Wilkinson (father and mother-in-law), Dr. Joseph Dobson (uncle), Lieut-Col. J.F. Dodson, Capt. D.F. Dobson, and Mr. W. Broadhead (cousins), Mr. E.F. Wilkinson, Mr. R. Wilkinson and Lance-Corpl. G. Wilkinson (brothers-in-law), Miss Sarah Carrack, Mrs. Wells, Lieut.-Col. W. Thompson, Major R. Lawford Knaggs, and Captain A. Richardson (Leeds General Infirmary), Capt. J.R. Wynne-Edwards and Mr. R. Wilson (Leeds Grammar School), Dr. and Mrs. J. Holmes, Dr. J.J. Anning, Mr. Richard Jackson, Mr. H. Wild, Mr. E.D.H. Rowntree, and Mr. Arthur Hanson.

[Kathleen6690]

Sorry to bother you all with this! Desperately trying to create a 'family obiturary' of sorts for a WWI commemoration piece in Leeds, trying to be as accurate as possible, bu it seems very difficult! Thank you all though.

TNA have only copied the front of the cards - Ancestry copied the back as well, this one is blank so you have all the information on the card. Unfortunately without a service record there is no certainty this is your man, or that the man you are researching even served in the armed forces.

There are two possibilities regarding the soldier on this card. Either he originally enlisted in the West Yorkshire Regiment as a regular soldier around 1893 (see Paul Nixon's site http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/west-yorkshire-regiment-1st-2nd.html 3534 was aged 15 on enlistment therefore born about 1878/4066 was aged 18) or he was a member of the Territorial Force (which tends towards a local connection- e.g. Leeds Bradford,York or round about?). He may have transferred to the Labour Corps before the renumbering of the TF or it may be his new number is simply not not shown on the card, e.g. 3748 was with the 1/7th and kia on 01/07/1916; 3799 was with the 1/8th.

I can't find another card for the 14 Star so the latter seems the most likely, however the TF was renumbered in March 1917 and although I'm no expert I believe his transfer to the Labour Corps was later in 1917 around September/October (I believe there is a more accurate list available in Ivor Lee's book on the Labour Corps). If this is the only card it sans he did not serve overseas until after 31/12/1915.

The mic also indicates he is on the Labour Corps Roll which means they issued his medals (though they would be inscribed to the West Yorkshire Regt). It is therefore a bit of a puzzle when he joined the Gloucester Regiment. There is an outside chance the Roll will show his original Battalion but these are not available online. There is a full guide to interpreting these cards on the parent site the LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/soldiers/campaignmedals.html

I'd suggest the strongest indication as to whether or not this is your man would be his age and marital status or, as suggested at post 9 above the AVL if it has survived (not the man the AVL - not all have been kept).

Local newspapers also published volunteers, especially in the early days and many towns/churches produced Rolls of Honour that included those who served as well as those who died.

Ken

EDIT I see from the above there is a Leeds connection so that supports the TF hypothesis however if the man you are researching is Dr J. J. Pickles I'd be very surprised if this was his medal card! As the account above states two brothers are serving as medical men, one in the Army and one in the Navy as H.D. was in the Army I guess J.J. was the Naval man and you must look elsewhere for his record.

[Blackblue]

Hi Kathleen,

Charles is mentioned here as a Gunner in the Royal Field Artillery. I can also see records for William, Phillip, Harold and the SWB application for Clifford.

It looks to me as though John Jagger Jnr didn't serve as he is down here as a Dr, so I would be pretty sure he served in such a capacity. I can't find any reference to him in either Army or Navy records.

Rgds

Tim

[Blackblue]

There is only one Charles E Pickles, Gunner 961293, Royal Field Artillery.

Rgds

Tim

[Blackblue]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2522577/?page=1

Have you seen father's obituary here? It says all six sons served and two were killed.

Tim

[Blackblue]

Looks like John Jagger Pickles junior did serve.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31055/supplements/14537

And these might be his papers:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C1167692

Rgds

Tim

[Blackblue]

Did you know Harold won an MC?

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30780/supplements/7920/page.pdf