New collector, US WWI Victory Medal, real or copy

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Hello LF and all, what clasp would cover Belleau Wood/, the dates seem to miss it.?

khaki

khaki,

Although there was no official Battle Clasp for the Battle of Belleau Wood ( June 1st - 26th, 1918 ), as Bill mentioned, there were several unofficial Battle Clasps, including one for Belleau Woods ( photo attached ),

Also attached is a nice drawing of the Marines in action at Belleau Wood, which I know you will find interesting.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

Thanks LF,

Great battle illustration, and photo of the clasp (unofficial) I must look out for one.

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

many thanks chaps for all the most interesting additional information, quite a complicated subject and as said some lively and interesting debate !,plenty of interesting info here for me to digest over the holiday period, once again many thanks all, much appreciated, all the best for 2014,

regards,

John.

John,

Not wishing to reopen any debate on your medal, as that has been adequately covered, but just something you yourself may find interesting, attached is a photograph of another U.S. Victory Medal with both a ' France ' Clasp and also a selection of ' Battle Clasps ' attached to the ribbon, the same combination of Clasps as on your medal.

Regards,

LF

[jwp2007]

Thanks all for the additional info and pics, I will continue to enjoy this medal in my collection !, my most treasured is this british example which belonged to my grandfather,

John.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks all for the additional info and pics, I will continue to enjoy this medal in my collection !, my most treasured is this british example which belonged to my grandfather,

John.

John,

What a wonderful set of WW1 memorabilia belonging to your Grandfather, John Pearcy, which includes his original King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry and London Regiment Identity Discs, you must be very proud of contents of that box.

Regards,

LF

[Bilco]

Hi LF,

That medal you showed in post # 53 is very intriguing. I asked Johnnymac over in the States what he thought of it, and he replied:

"As to the medal you posted, the second clasp (CHAMPAGNE-MARNE) looks like a late issue type IV pin back as well as the fifth clasp (DEFENSIVE SECTOR).

The FRANCE Clasp may be a repro, I can’t say for sure with this photo.

Ribbon is modern (English made).

Last the first, third and fourth clasp - note how clean they are where the spacer bar should be - they also could be late issue."

He asks if you have a photo of the reverse, as the reverse of the clasps would give a further clue to their origin. He has been collecting US Victory medals for many years, has a fantastic collection, and is able to assess clasps by their colour, lettering, stars and the 'Ds' (the curved ends) to tell whether they are original or later productions, copies etc. He's been trying to teach me, but I find it hard to take it all in!

On the subject of having Battle clasps with Service clasps, he sent this extract from the New York Times for 23 April 1920. It is from General Order 75, which was issued by General Pershing's Headquarters, and laid down the criteria for the Battle and Service clasps:

He confirms that the US Goverment interpretation of the Service clasp eligibility was that if you had a Battle clasp or clasps you did not get a Service clasp. When US forces were sent to Russia they were all entitled to the RUSSIA Service clasp. If they were involved in any fighting they were also entitled to the Defensive Sector clasp, but each individual had to choose which one they were awarded - they couldn't have both.

Johhnymac has sent some interesting source material on the Defensive Sector clasp, but I'll put that in another posting.

regards,

Bill

[jwp2007]

John,

What a wonderful set of WW1 memorabilia belonging to your Grandfather, John Pearcy, which includes his original King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry and London Regiment Identity Discs, you must be very proud of contents of that box.

Regards,

LF

Thanks LF, I have been very lucky that so much of grandfather's stuff survived, grandmother passed this to me in the early 1980's, I have several photos of grandfather taken during his training at Rugeley camp, lots of embroidered post cards (all written) he sent home and his original discharge documents, I was also lucky to obtain the attached pick of W company 6th battalion KOYLI on the day they were disbanded,(from the archives of the IWM ) in February 1918, the men were transferred to the 16th entrenching battalion but within weeks the German spring offensive was launched and grandfather and his comrades were transferred to the 3rd London regiment and back in front line action soon after.

John.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I was also lucky to obtain the attached pick of W company 6th battalion KOYLI on the day they were disbanded,(from the archives of the IWM ) in February 1918,

John,

An excellent photo, looks to have been taken at the scene of a fallen church spire.

Regards,

LF

[jwp2007]

John,

An excellent photo, looks to have been taken at the scene of a fallen church spire.

Regards,

LF

The location is the village of Crisolles in northern France, here is a local postcard of the same location,

John.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The location is the village of Crisolles in northern France, here is a local postcard of the same location,

John.

John,

Here is a photo of the church in Crisolles, as it looks today, with the steeple back in the right place.

Regards,

LF

[jwp2007]

John,

Here is a photo of the church in Crisolles, as it looks today, with the steeple back in the right place.

Regards,

LF

LF, thanks for the pic, would like to include this in my research if that's ok,

kind regards,

John.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF, thanks for the pic, would like to include this in my research if that's ok,

kind regards,

John.

John,

It is just a photo I got from the internet, and there were others also, so I am sure you using them for your private purposes will be fine.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

khaki,

Although there was no official Battle Clasp for the Battle of Belleau Wood ( June 1st - 26th, 1918 ), as Bill mentioned, there were several unofficial Battle Clasps, including one for Belleau Woods ( photo attached ),

Also attached is a nice drawing of the Marines in action at Belleau Wood, which I know you will find interesting.

Regards,

LF

Hello LF,

My copy of the drawing of Belleau Wood arrived today, excellent picture can't wait to frame it and get it on the wall,

Thanks for the 'tip'

regards

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

My copy of the drawing of Belleau Wood arrived today

khaki

Khaki,

Pleased to hear you were able to get a copy.

I shall keep an eye out for any other nice Belleau Woods artwork.

Regards,

LF

[johnnymac1]

Im a new collector, and new to this site, so first of all hello =)

A few days ago i picked up a WWI US Victory medal for £13.50 at a local market. I have suspicions that it is a copy (which I dont really mind as I like this medal) but I was wondering if anyone could give me any tips on spotting the difference between real and copy Victory Medals (particularly US ones). I have trawled the internet but cant find any site that details the differences.

I feel it is a copy for a few reasons, firstly the ribbon looks way to clean and new, although I know these can be replaced. Secondly the metal is a little pitted which i believe is a sign of a copy. Also the figure on the front, above the belt there is a part which seems smoother than the rest of the body armour, like it has been rubbed smooth. The metal feels sturdy enough and doesn't bend but, apart from the things I mention above, the medal looks pretty good. I am going to be purchasing a few books on the subject as I've always been fascinated with militaria and medals but have only just taken the plunge.

As i say, I'm not too bothered if it is a copy, but i dont think its fake. Behind the clasp is the hallmark G27 (think its a makers hallmark)

Im having trouble adding photos, so Iv put them on my photobucket

Any help at all will be appreciated

Bill

Hello Bill,

I am sorry to get onto this forum and subject so late. I will offer you some needed information on "this" medal.

It was made after 2002, by Graco Awards in Texas. The company was sold off to a division of Northwest Territorial Mint.

The ribbon, medal, and suspension are all wrong or just plainly put a repro. This medal you have was made up for public sales. The reason I say public sales is Graco did make in the very late 1990's and a few hundred Victory medals for the US Government, they are marked GRACO-GI on the brooch.

I hope this helps.

Regards Jim

[johnnymac1]

Bill

Welcome to the forum.

I must state that it is very difficult to pass any real comment without actually handling an item, however I think this may be a modern striking. The detail of the Winged Victory's face and armour appears too vague.

I have attached a scan of an example from my collection.

Sepoy

Hello Sepoy,

I just found this posting, I am not sure if you are awear that your medal that you posted in #7 is an after market and not a government issue, note the missing name FRASER.

Regards, Jim

[JOVE23]

I too just found this posting, and I have a couple of questions that may or may not be answerable:

1) I know that some British Victory Medals had the name of the recipient engraved on the edge of the medal. Was this also a common practice for the American variety? I ask because I am trying to track down a Victory Medal my ancestor in the AEF would have earned (posthumously, and of course nobody in the family knows where the thing is!)

2) For the selfsame ancestor, I have the following battles listed in his record:

• Alsace
• Fismes
• Juvigny
• Verdun Bois du Chene (I assume this is the Bois du Chene Sec outside Gesnes, where my ancestor was KIA 4/10/18)

What clasps would best match up with those battles?

3) Same question as #2, but for another ancestor. There are two sets of engagements, one I am guessing matches with the clasps and the other a more specific list?:

List 1:

• Aisne-Marne
• Oise-Aisne
• Meuse-Argonne
• Defensive Sector

List 2:

• Alsace Sec May-June 1918
• Battle of Toul Marne 7/9-8/1918
• Juvigny and Terney Sorney Aug.-9/19 (typo?)
• Meuse-Argonne 9/-11/1918

Thanks in advance for your help!

[trenchtrotter]

Re naming all British medals were named but blank ones are encountered. US ones were not named . Re clasps I can't help sorry.

TT

[Bilco]

Hi Gents,

Just to elaborate on trenchtrotter's post - the US Victory medals were issued un-named. However, the US Navy allowed recipients to have their medals named privately, like this one in my collection:

The name is J STANLEY GORDON U.S. NAVY Q.M. 1st CLASS. There is a tiny C after the U and a tiny G after the S, so I guess he was in the Coast Guard. The engraving is very elegantly done.

Of course, once back in civilian life many people, Army and Navy, had their medals engraved anyway!

Bill

[johnnymac1]

Bilco, there you go teasing me again with this beautiful medal.

The Coast Guard was formed from the merger of the Revenue Cutter Service and the U.S. Life-Saving Service on 28 January 1915, as an organization under the U.S. Department of the Treasury. During War times it served under the US Navy.

[johnnymac1]

Here one of my named medals

Charles B. Coulter had his medal engraved on the rim, as was allowed by the Navy. The engraving reads: C.B. Coulter, Machinist's Mate 2 class C. U.S.S.C. 94 - U.S.S. Sonoma.

As a little background history, Sub Chaser 94 it served as a unit leader of "Unit F", which consisted of the Sub Chasers SC 94, SC 227, and SC 151. These Sub Chasers had been assigned to Base 25, located at Corfu, Greece, between 1917-1918.

With the war gearing down, Charles B. Coulter was transferred to the U.S.S. Sonoma, a seafaring Tug/Mine Sweeper, which was assigned to the Atlantic Fleet. sweeping mines until 1920. The Sonoma served in that capacity until the end of the First World War. In 1919, the Sonoma again was transferred, but this time to the Pacific Fleet. On July 17, 1920, all ships were being re-designated, and she became known as Fleet Tug (AT-12).

Just a little more on the U.S.S. Sonoma - On May15, 1944, she was again re-designated as Fleet Tug "old" (ATO-12). The gallant tug continued to serve until she was lost while fighting at Leyte Gulf on October 24, 1944, at San Pedro Bay, to a flaming Japanese Kamikaze Betty bomber. The Sonoma and the LCI-1065 (Landing Craft, Infantry (large) boat were the first two boats too be sunk by a diving air craft in WWII. The proud tugboat, the U.S.S. Sonoma (ATO-12), had earned five battle stars before being sunk.