Kings Shropshire Light Infantry

[the gunners dream]

Hi Joanne,

I've just replied to your earlier post.

Steve

[Myrtle]

Denizon

I have sent you a pm.

Myrtle

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Joanne

Pte. Richard John Bishop, landed in France/Flanders on the 10th September 1914 with the 1st Battalion, at some point in time he moved to the 2nd Battalion and served in Salonika. He was discharged but his 1914 Star medal roll entry does not give at date or reson for discharge. I see Steve as given you his C.W.G.C. details. At the moment thats all I have on him.

Annette

[clemmy11]

Hi Annette and Steve,thankyou both for getting back to me so quickly,I stumbled across this grave when I visited Shrewsbury cemetery a couple of months ago while doing family history, this is the first time I have looked at someone's military history and I have downloaded the medal card but I don,t really understand the information on it,I thought I had the wrong person as he was discharged but is still in a military grave,can you tell me why this is?

Thankyou both again,Joanne

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Joanne

thought I had the wrong person as he was discharged but is still in a military grave,can you tell me why this is?

I think men who were discharged were entilted to CWGC graves as long as they died before the cut off date, which I think was 1921 but I am not 100% of that.

Annette

[demgbr]

Hi Myrtle,

Herefords--KSLI--Border Regiment.

I have just worked out another theory for the multiple transfer of Herefords to the Border Regiment via the KSLI. The Herefordshire Regiment was a territorial regiment and was never a part of the New Armies. The Herefords after the Gallipoli withdrawal moved to Egypt and then Palestine where they fought the Turks in the Gaza area.

Presumably the Herefords training in England were expected to join their own regiment in the Middle East but when the demand for replacements came from France after the July losses a Draft of ~200 was sent to France. As the Herefordshire Regiment had no presence there they were transferred to the Kings Shropshire Light Infantry with whom they had a close long-standing relationship. Then when the Borderers asked for more men to make up their numbers for the coming attack on the Redan Heights in November the Draft was then transferred to the 'Lonsdales'.

Just a thought!

Dennis

[Myrtle]

Hi Dennis

A good thought.

I believe you are on to something but it would appear that the problem with transferring the Herefords to the Border Regiment could have been more to do with the possible contravention of the 1907 Territorial & Reserve Force Act. I am cooking supper at the moment so will post some details later.

Myrtle

[eric e]

Annette

Talking to another brother-in-law last night.His uncle served in the 7th Bn KSLI. His was Private Henry Lewis [43257]. He was killed on 27th September 1918.

You probably have this info but posted just in case.

By the way Steve tells me that I used to work with your father at Mullers. Small world.

Myrtle,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Charles Yapp not a close ralation to Frederick and Harry as far as I know.We think Frederick was Harry's uncle.

Cheers

Eric.

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Eric

By the way Steve tells me that I used to work with your father at Mullers. Small world.

It is a small world.

I do have Private Henry Lewis details thanks.

Annette

[Ken Wayman]

Hi all

Most of the Pals will know that I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the Kings Shropshire Light Infantry (Great War only) but many new Pals may not be aware of this. Any information would be greatfully received. Also willing to do look ups for anyone with K.S.L.I. interest.

One day when finished I will make the database available to Library service or who ever can make best use of it.

Annette

Hi Annette

One addition for you from my village, Pelsall (Staffordshire).

Frank THOMAS MM, Born in Welshampton, Shropshire and lived at The Wood, Pelsall. Son of Mrs. Sarah Thomas. Married. Tram conductor for Walsall Corporation. Called up as reservist in August 1914 in Wem, Shropshire. Company Quarter Master Sergeant, 8373, ‘A’ Company, 6th (Service) Battalion, the King’s Shropshire Light Infantry (60th Brigade, 20th Light Division). Unit History – [signalling instructor for two years in Wales before he went to France] – Somme, 21/8-3/9/16 Battle of Delville Wood; 3-5/9/16 Battle of Guillemont; 16-20/9/16 Battle of Flers-Courcelette; 27/9/16 Battle of Morval. 1-8/10/16 Battle of Le Transloy. 14/3-5/4/17 German Retreat to the Hindenburg Line. 3rd Ypres (‘Passchendaele’), 16-18/8/17 Battle of Langemarck; 20-25/9/17 Battle of the Menin Road Ridge; 26-28/9/17 Battle of Polygon Wood. Cambrai, 20-21/11/17 Tank Attack; 23-28/11/17 Capture of Bourlon Wood; 30/11-2/12/17 German Counter Attacks. Out of the line from end of 1917 to March 1918. Kaiserschlacht – Somme, 22-23/3/18 Battle of St. Quentin; 24-25/3/18 Actions at the Somme Crossings; 26-27/3/18 Battle of Rosières. 20/4/18 withdrawn to rest SW of Amiens and take in reinforcements until October 1918, then took part in the final advances. Suffered trench fever in January 1918. Accidentally killed on Friday, 2/8/18 (age 29) by a truck overturning when taking rations up the line. Buried in plot IV. E. 5 of Sucrerie Cemetery, Ablain St. Nazaire, near Arras, France; headstone inscription reads, ‘Thy will not mine O Lord.’ Cemetery visited and inscribed cross placed by the headstone on 31st October 2002. Name appears on the Pelsall War Memorial, on the Walsall War Memorial and in the Pelsall section of the Staffordshire Roll of Honour. Commemorated in ‘Walsall Peace Celebrations, 1919’, under the section, Corporation Employees (Tramways). Left a widow, Susannah, and two children.

Hope this is useful.

Ken

[GraemeClarke]

Hi Annette,

Just noted your interest.

The following appear on the Walsall Roll Of Honour, I have further details if required.

Edwin ALLSOPP, Private 20065, 5th Battalion, Kings Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Wednesday 30 August 1916

Albert Edward BOOKER, Private 17688, 7th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Friday 14 July 1916

Josiah FLETCHER, Private 14374, 7th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Friday 14 July 1916

Ernest GOULD, Private 18082, 6th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in Belgium on Saturday 12 February 1916

George GREAVES, Private 17011, 5th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in Belgium on Thursday 13 January 1916

Archie George HALL, Private 205143, 1/4th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Thursday 21 November 1918

Philip HOUGH, Private 239285, Herefordshire Regiment

attached, 6th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Monday 1 April 1918

The Reverend Thomas HOWELL, Chaplain 4th Class

Royal Army Chaplains Department

attached, 6th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Saturday 1 December 1917

George JACKSON, Sergeant 7962, “A” Company, 1st Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Wednesday 11 November 1914

Bert OSBORNE, Private 17086, 1st Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Wednesday 18 September 1918

John Henry PARKER (NO DETAILS KNOWN HELP!!)

Private 17740, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died on Sunday 16 December 1917

John PEARMAN, Private 31870, “A” Company, 10th (Shropshire and Cheshire Yeomanry) Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Thursday 22 August 1918

Arthur RICKETTS, Private 6487, 2nd Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in Belgium on Sunday 16 May 1915

Thomas Bishop SIMPSON, Private 7682, 2nd Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Wednesday 26 May 1915

Charles SMITH, Private 31860, 10th (Shropshire and Cheshire Yeomanry) Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Thursday 22 August 1918

Frank THOMAS M.M., Company Quartermaster Sergeant 8373, “A” Company, 6th Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in France on Friday 2 August 1918

William BURNS (NO DETAILS KNOWN HELP!!)

Private 7113, 3rd Battalion, King’s Shropshire Light Infantry

Died in England on Sunday 3 October 1920

Graeme

[6th Shropshires]

Thanks Ken and Graeme, I will get back to you both by to night or tomorrow.

Annette

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Ken

Thanks for the information about C.Q.M.S. Frank, Thomas, some of it I did know already but the stuff I did not have will be add to my database if thats ok with you. Did you know there was an investigation into his death but I have not found the out come of it. I hope you do not mind me asking where the battle honous come from, only they are a little incorrect for the 6th K.S.L.I., for example the Battalion was not involved in 26-28/9/17 Battle of Polygon Wood, they were in camp at Talana Farm at time, nor the 23-28/11/17 Capture of Bourlon Wood, althou they were in the front line but east of Masnieres. Plus they were only out of the line from mid February 1918 to mid March, they held the line near Gheluvelt up until then. The Battalion was withdrawn on night of 1st April not the 20th April, and it was back in the line again by early May in the Avion and Mericourt area.

Hi Graeme

I did not know about John Henry PARKER, Archie George HALL or William BURNS deaths, I have found William Burns and Archie George Hall on the CWGC site but not John Henry Parker's details, do you know where he is buried ?

William Burns' 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records he landed in F/F on 5-2-15 and joined 2/K.S.L.I. It also records he was discharged on 14-9-16 (or it could be 1918 text not clear) which is odd because C.W.G.C. records he was with 3rd Battalion in october 1920 ? If he had re-enlisted then I would have thought he would have recieved a new number.

John Henry Parker 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records landed in F/F on 5-10-15 and joined 5th Batt. Discharged 12-6-16.

Also you may not have the following info.

Josiah FLETCHER, 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records landed in F/F on landed 28-9-15 with the 7th Batt.

George GREAVES, Private 17011, 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records landed in F/F on 9-6-15 and joined 5th Batt.

George JACKSON, Sergeant 7962, 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records landed in F/F on 10-9-14 with 1st Batt.

Bert OSBORNE, Private 17086, 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records landed F/F on 12/10/15 and joined 5th Batt.

Arthur RICKETTS, Private 6487, 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records landed in F/F on 18-2-15 and joined 2nd Batt.

Thomas Bishop SIMPSON, Private 7682, 1914-15 Star Medal Roll records SR landed in F/F on 25-3-15 and joined 2nd Batt.

If you can add anything else other then CWGC or SD info., I would be greatful.

Again thanks

Annette

[GraemeClarke]

Hi Annette,

Re Parker, only have the following for him

John Henry PARKER, Private 17740, , King’s Shropshire Light Infantry, Died on Sunday 16 December 1917

John could not be identified from the details given. The information is from the index card to the Walsall roll of honour which records an address for his wife, Annie, as 32, Queen Street, Walsall.

I have checked the burials for Walsall Ryecroft Cemetery and he does not appear to have been buried there.

I have biographies on all the other men, do you want these? The are 16 in total so is an e-mail better or shall I post here?

Graeme

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Graeme

have biographies on all the other men, do you want these? The are 16 in total so is an e-mail better or shall I post here?

Many thanks, email would be best, again thanks.

Annette

[eric e]

Annette,

Just been given a picture of my grandfather. I thought at first it was a very good sketch, but is in fact a copy of a postcard. It is much enlarged [20"x15"]but in a very sorry state. It was produced by an old army colleague of grandads named Claude Hooper my father thinks they served together during The Great War. Dad thinks Claude lived in Coreley and was a wedding photographer after the war.

Would you have anything on Claude? It would be nice to know how long they served together.

I have a few postcards of individual soldiers with a note from grandad on the back saying that "it was one of his mates". Perhaps one is Claude.

Eric.

[trin1054]

Hi Annette,

this may be of interest to you. It's from an old magazine.

Marc

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Eric

I do have Claude Hooper in my records but know very little about him, he was a L/Cpl. with the No. 24883. He was taken POW (reported in Ludlow Advertiser on 2-3-18). I do not yet have his Battalion (s), I can say he was not in the Shropshire Yeomanry at any time, when I find more I will pass it on to you. Eric could I have scans of your grandfather and Claude, I would like to add them to my database if you do not mind.

Hi Marc

Thanks, I have Harry Meakin in my records but did not know about him being gassed, there are four Arthur Palmers, one was killed, so I can rule hime out.

Annette

[Guest John Reeves]

Hi Annette,

Do you have any information on Pte Edward Williams 9591 5th Battalion please. He died on 11-2-16. I have a photo of him, and if I can work out how to upload it, you can have a copy if you'd like.

Best Wishes

Tim.

I came across the posting while searching for information on my great uncle, Uncle Ted, Edward Williams of Gravel Lodge, Leighton, Montgomeryshire. The only official information I have of him comes from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which does not identify a grave location but states, "Remembered with honour Ypres (Menin Gate) memorial. This confilcts with family history, since a photograph of his grave was at one time in our possession, together with his bloodstained papers. Unfortunately, I only heard this from my grandmother, and I have been unable to locate these documents.

I would very much appreciate receiving a copy of the photograph you have of him, together with any other information which might explain this apparent mystery.

Thanking you for your attention. I will also be correspond with Annette Burgoyne who responded to the original posting.

Yours truly,

John Reeves, Antigonish, Nova Scotia

[Guest John Reeves]

Hi Tim

The only info. I have on Pte 9591 Edward Williams is from SD & C.W.G.C., if you do not have this info. let me know and I will sent it to you. The 5/K.S.L.I. were relieved by its sister battalion the 6th on the night of 11/12th this chance meeting caused great pleasure and greetings were exchanged, possibley a little too loudly, for the Germans opened up with a heavy bombardment. Plus the Germans tried to get into trench still held by the 5/K.S.L.I. The Regimental History records that 10 men were killed during the relief but I can only find 8 in SD, I do not have 5th Batt.'s war diary to see which is correct. The bombardment continued all night and became intense during the 12th - the 6th Batt. lost 3 officers & 19 O.R.'s killed during the 12th.

Thanks

Regards

Annette

I was most interested to discover this information as Edward Williams was my great uncle. Oral family history has it that he was shot in the chest, and that his bloodstained papers were subsequently returned home to Gravel Lodge, Leighton, Montgomery. His mother was provided with a photograph of his grave. She was apparently given the opportunity to visit the site, after the war, but declined.

However, this conflicts with the War Graves Commission web site which has him "remembered with honour Ypers (Menin Gate) Memorial," which means, I understand, that his remains were never located for burial. I had been unable to locate documentation to substantiate the family version, and had assumed it must be wrong.

Now, it seems from your posting that he died in the British lines, possibly during a bombardment, or when the Germans endeavoured to enter the trench. From this it seems possible that his remains might have been located for burial.

I am most desirous of receiving any information which might clear up this mystery. Also any information whatsoever about my Uncle Ted, Private Edward Williams 9591, 5th Bn. KSLI.

Thanking you,

John Reeves, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada

[eric e]

Hi Annette,

This is my grandfather John Richard Evans [2154] [230334]

I have several other photos, but I couldn't say if they are of Claude Hooper.

My aunt says 2 of the photo's are of Tom Butcher [230116] who died on 23-1-1918 and is remembered at the Port Said war memorial cemetry. Does this mean he has no known grave?

I can post his and the other photo's if you like but cannot identify them.

Not even sure if they are all KSLI. Off for a game of badminton now so will post tomorrow if you want them.

Cheers

Eric

[NeilD]

Hi Annette et al

What a cracking thread. Going back to whether these mens' transfers were a paper exercise - my question is if this was the case would they have been given KSLI Regimental Numbers? My relative PTE FRED FARMER Hfds/KSLI/Borders has a diffrent Regtl No for the three Regts he was in. As to whether he saw service with the KSLI - I have no idea.

NeilD

[Myrtle]

Hi Annette et al

What a cracking thread. Going back to whether these mens' transfers were a paper exercise - my question is if this was the case would they have been given KSLI Regimental Numbers? My relative PTE FRED FARMER Hfds/KSLI/Borders has a diffrent Regtl No for the three Regts he was in. As to whether he saw service with the KSLI - I have no idea.

NeilD

Neil

Good to see you back. I haven't come across any of the transferred Herefords serving overseas with the KSLI yet, although they may have been training with the KSLI at home. I need to look up the KSLI diary unless someone has already done so.

Have you found anything further re. Fred Farmer's service at Gallipoli?

Denis

You are probably thinking that the supper was the longest in history; caught up by work. I will post soon on my findings regarding "territorial act".

Eric

Thank you for checking on Charles Yapp.

Regards

Myrtle

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Eric

Many thanks for the scan of photo, and I would be very greatful if you could post or email the other photos. Also do they mind if I down load the Shropshire Yeomanry photos, and could I use them if and when I do a book on the 10/K.S.L.I. (I may never get around to doing one on the 10th).

Tom Butcher does have a grave its B28. Port Said is a War Memorial Cemetery, which confused me first time I came across it.

Hi Neil

I think Myrtle could well be on the right track and they trained with the K.S.L.I. I think there were about 250 men of the Herefords who transferred to the K.S.L.I. (but it could be less then that because M.I.C. does not record Hereford Regt. for serveral dozen of them), out of this number range (20375 to 20625) less then a dozen served with the K.S.L.I. at the front.

Annette

[6th Shropshires]

Hi John

The only official information I have of him comes from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which does not identify a grave location but states, "Remembered with honour Ypres (Menin Gate) memorial. This confilcts with family history, since a photograph of his grave was at one time in our possession, together with his bloodstained papers

Its is very possible that he did have a grave but it was lost due the shell fire or that lest the grave marker was lost. The Battalion held the line between Boesinghe and Pilckem road from about 9th Jan to night of 11th/12th Feb. 1916 (I still do not have the 5th K.S.L.I. war diary, so can not give a full picture). During this time 38 men were killed in action and six died of wounds, out of those killed in action only four have known graves. Some of those without a grave would have been blown to bits but from my work over the years, I can say not all 34 of the missing (two of these who died of wounds also have no graves, so that makes 36), were blown to bits most would have had grave, which got lost.

The 6th Battalion lost 31 killed in action (could be 30 because I think one man as the wrong date) and six died of wounds holding the same area but they were lucky, well thats not the right word but most of their dead have graves, only 7 do not have a grave. I know one man from the 6th Batt. was buried behind the canal bank and moved after the war, I think many of his mates would have also been buried in same area because units tended to bury their men together if possible. I also think that the place where the 5th Batt. buried their dead got shelled at some time and most of their lost. Now I could be barking up the wrong tree but I am hoping to do more research into this, its just finding the time to do it.

When I visited Ypres back in November, I noticed several unknow K.S.L.I. lads in some of the cemeteries, I am sure I can work out which battalion they were with at time of death, if C.W.G.C. have recorded where the bodies were found, ok I am sure this can not been done for all, and many people will not agree with me but I am still going to give it a try, one of the unknowns was a captain so I am sure I can find out who he is (as long as CWGC have details of where body was found).

Annette