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jameeuwsen

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jameeuwsen

Strange, the girl on the foto is my grandmother and her handwriting on the back gives a date of 21th Jan or Jun in 1916 when he is on the leave, I found John on the Red Cross link you mentioned. My grandmother lives in England until 1920 after married my grandfather who worked from 1916 - 1920 at the Pelabon work in Twickenham as fraiser.

 

Jan

C_G1_E_15_01_0024_3523_0.JPG

C_G1_E_15_01_0024_3522_0.JPG

Rode Kruis C_G1_E_15_01_0024_3521_0.JPG

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jameeuwsen

Strange, the girl on the foto is my grandmother and her handwriting on the back gives a date of 21th Jan or Jun in 1916 when he is on the leave, I found John on the Red Cross link you mentioned. My grandmother lives in England until 1920 after married my grandfather who worked from 1916 - 1920 at the Pelabon work in Twickenham as fraiser.

 

Jan

C_G1_E_15_01_0024_3523_0.JPG

C_G1_E_15_01_0024_3522_0.JPG

Rode Kruis C_G1_E_15_01_0024_3521_0.JPG

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Pat Atkins

Thanks, Steve - it's like wading through porridge sometimes on there! The second card seems to say he was taken prisoner at "Aubourge" - can't find it on the map, but I think it must refer to Obourg, just the other side of the canal at Mons.

Edited by Pat Atkins

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FROGSMILE
5 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Thanks, Steve - it's like wading through porridge sometimes on there! The second card seems to say he was taken prisoner at "Aubourge" - can't find it on the map, but I think it must refer to Obourg, just the other side of the canal at Mons.


There’s a specific, dedicated blog to 4th  Battalion Middlesex Regiment during that time here, Pat: https://4thmiddlesex.wordpress.com

 

I hope that it will be of general interest to Jan and Steve, but unfortunately the war diary that’s included in the menu does not commence until September 1915.  However, there is more information regarding the 4th battalion’s activity in August 1914 in this earlier thread: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/239000-4th-middlesex-at-mons/


It seems that D Company had 183 men captured at that time, the most out of the battalion’s four companies.

 

And this link refers to Obourg: https://www.visitmons.co.uk/see-do/top-sights/mons-the-first-the-last/battlefields-guide/5-obourg-station

 

The enclosed photo shows Private Carter of D Company on sentry duty at the approach to the canal bridge just one day before the German attack.  We can assume that he would have been known to LCpl Dick.

CB176A82-61F8-4D38-942E-BC2C63BF295A.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE

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jameeuwsen

I have looked at the foto again now in negative and I am sure the text on the is Jan. 21th 1916, after this is searched the internet again on Obourge, Obourg, Aubourge and Aubourg, on the last I found the following link.

https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php?title=The_British_Campaign_in_France_(april_1916)  

 

If you scroll down to "The Defence of the Bridges of Nimy" you will see that the 4th Middlesex are situated on that place in April 1916 to defend the bridges near Aubourg station at Nimy a very little village near Mons.

I think J F Dicks was ( maybe wounded ) captured at that place in aprilm 1916.

 

Another question, when you served abroad in Belgium at that time, was there leave arrangement for soldiers at that time ?

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FROGSMILE
3 hours ago, jameeuwsen said:

I have looked at the foto again now in negative and I am sure the text on the is Jan. 21th 1916, after this is searched the internet again on Obourge, Obourg, Aubourge and Aubourg, on the last I found the following link.

https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php?title=The_British_Campaign_in_France_(april_1916)  

 

If you scroll down to "The Defence of the Bridges of Nimy" you will see that the 4th Middlesex are situated on that place in April 1916 to defend the bridges near Aubourg station at Nimy a very little village near Mons.

I think J F Dicks was ( maybe wounded ) captured at that place in aprilm 1916.

 

Another question, when you served abroad in Belgium at that time, was there leave arrangement for soldiers at that time ?

 

Jan, I think you are mixing up 1916 with 1914.  The 4th Middlesex defended the bridge and station at Obourg in 1914, as I posted just above?

Edited by FROGSMILE

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jameeuwsen

Hello Frogsmile,

 

I see my mistake, it is indeed about the battle of Mons in 1914, but publicized in 1916.

Only now I don't have an explanation  for the date on the back of the photo.

Maybe the foto is made before 1914 and presented to somebody in 1916.

I am sure Jack in John Francis Dicks, in the military papers the address in 1918 at his marriage is the same address as my great grandmother and the witness on the marriage is Emma, my grandmother. 

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, jameeuwsen said:

Hello Frogsmile,

 

I see my mistake, it is indeed about the battle of Mons in 1914, but publicized in 1916.

Only now I don't have an explanation  for the date on the back of the photo.

Maybe the foto is made before 1914 and presented to somebody in 1916.

I am sure Jack in John Francis Dicks, in the military papers the address in 1918 at his marriage is the same address as my great grandmother and the witness on the marriage is Emma, my grandmother. 


I think it depends upon when he went into the Dutch camp.  Apparently at one stage men interned in Holland were permitted to go on leave to Britain providing that they returned, but I don’t know the details.  Presumably he met with your grandmother while he was on leave given that she is in the photo with him? 

Edited by FROGSMILE

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Pat Atkins

According to his records (at least, the one on the preceding page of this thread), he arrived in Holland for internment on 29th December 1917.

 

Cheers, Pat

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FROGSMILE
3 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

According to his records (at least, the one on the preceding page of this thread), he arrived in Holland for internment on 29th December 1917.

 

Cheers, Pat


Thanks Pat. Yes, I did get that but am really confused by the timeline implied by the inscription on the postcard/photo and I think it’s probably wrong.  Dicks was clearly captured in 1914 during the famous action by 4th Middlesex and was then in captivity or internment for the rest of the war until he was repatriated.  Either the photo was taken after the war, or the correct date for the leave was in 1918, during a period of parole from Dutch internment.

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Pat Atkins

I agree, Frogsmile, there is a seemingly irreconcilable contradiction here. At least, I can't reconcile it with the period of Dicks's captivity - that's an interesting idea about leave from internment, though I have to say I know nothing about the subject. To me, the possibilities seem to be: (1) the postcard date is wrong, or (2) the soldier on postcard isn't our man. 

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

I agree, Frogsmile, there is a seemingly irreconcilable contradiction here. At least, I can't reconcile it with the period of Dicks's captivity - that's an interesting idea about leave from internment, though I have to say I know nothing about the subject. To me, the possibilities seem to be: (1) the postcard date is wrong, or (2) the soldier on postcard isn't our man. 

 

It's definitely the same man in both photos, the facial resemblance and effect of the passage of time is clear.  As regards special leave from Holland, it is mentioned in a lengthy and interesting thread in the 'Soldiers and their units' section: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/220466-interned-in-the-netherlands-pictures-of-1500-soldiers-found/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-2869029

 

However, as the lady in the photo is apparently Dutch it seems more likely that she went to Britain after the war and liaised with Dicks there, as it seems less feasible that she would have gone over while the war was still running its course.

 

Edited by FROGSMILE

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jameeuwsen

Hello all,

 

I am very pleased with all your reactions en some very useful links.

 

The girl on the photo is Emma Elizabeth Keeys, she met my grandfather while he worked ( 1916-1920 ) at the Pelabon ammunition factory in Twickenham.

They married in 1919 and in 1920 they moved to Holland.

 

I am sure the man on both photos is John F Dicks, his father Francis is the brother of Emma's Mother Mary E Dicks, in 1918 John F and his wife lives by Emma's mother in her house 31 Raleigh Road in Richmond.

 

For his second enlistment he asked for the Middlesex Regiment, probably because his younger brother Frederick also served in this regiment, I think his Reg. numbers  are 12881 and 13481, untill now I don't have found his military record.

 

For the date on the photo I don,t have an explanation, probably the photo was presented on the date to someone in the family.

 

Regards,

 

Jan

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FROGSMILE
Posted (edited)

I can imagine that because he had previous military service his parents were assured that he might take care of his less experienced brother in the Middlesex Regiment.  
They seem to have been an Anglo-Dutch family going back two generations even then.

There is interesting information about the Pelabon Ammunition Factory, here:

 

1.   https://www.bvott.org.uk

 

2.  https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/twickenham-richmond-belgian-refugees/

 

3.  https://stmargarets.london/archives/2014/03/bloody_belgians_in_st_margarets_in_the_first_world.html

 

It seems that several love stories began at the factory that leave links between Britain and the Low Countries to this day.

Edited by FROGSMILE

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jameeuwsen

Hello All,

 

Searching on the internet about Englisch POW,s in Holland at the Greath War I found there was made  a leave arrangement for them, a Google translation of the arrangement Attached to this reply.

In this context it is possible John F Dicks was on leave in London in Juni 1917.

 

Regards, Jan

Leave scheme for interned English POW.pdf

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FROGSMILE
1 hour ago, jameeuwsen said:

Hello All,

 

Searching on the internet about Englisch POW,s in Holland at the Greath War I found there was made  a leave arrangement for them, a Google translation of the arrangement Attached to this reply.

In this context it is possible John F Dicks was on leave in London in Juni 1917.

 

Regards, Jan

Leave scheme for interned English POW.pdf 71.89 kB · 0 downloads


I thought that might be the case, Jan.  Thank you for updating his story.

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jameeuwsen

Hello Frogsmile ,

Do you know of someone on this forum is able to find some information about John's younger brother Frederick Dicks.

He served in he Middlesex Reg. ( number 12881 ) and in the machine gun Corps ( number 13481 ) both as private.

On Ancestry I can only find 3 forms with a medal.

 

Regards,

 

Jan

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FROGSMILE
5 minutes ago, jameeuwsen said:

Hello Frogsmile ,

Do you know of someone on this forum is able to find some information about John's younger brother Frederick Dicks.

He served in he Middlesex Reg. ( number 12881 ) and in the machine gun Corps ( number 13481 ) both as private.

On Ancestry I can only find 3 forms with a medal.

 

Regards,

 

Jan


Jan, your best course of action is to start a new thread with his name as the subject heading in the section of the forum titled: ‘Soldiers and their Units’.

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jameeuwsen

Thank you, tomorrow I will start a new thread in that section.

 

Regards,

 

Jan

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GWF1967
4 hours ago, jameeuwsen said:

Hello Frogsmile ,

Do you know of someone on this forum is able to find some information about John's younger brother Frederick Dicks.

He served in he Middlesex Reg. ( number 12881 ) and in the machine gun Corps ( number 13481 ) both as private.

Regards,

 

Jan

Find My Past have a medical record for Frederick.

He was serving with 3rd Battalion, Middlesex Regt. when he was admitted to No.3 Casualty Clearing Station on 11 Feb 1915, with G S.W. (gun shot wound - could have been shrapnel or  bullet)  lower back and right shoulder.

He was transferred to the Hospital Ambulance Train on the 12th. 

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