US Enlisted Collar Disks

[NavyDude]

3 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Welcome to the forum,

 

Any chance of a picture?

I work with the IL NG museum in Springfield and there are folks there who could certainly tell you but a picture would be helpful. (Ie I'm not sure how small the small letters etc) are.

There are designs with ILL as three letters straight across the center of the disk, some with a curved I straight L and cured L, and also some with large letters and a full-stop (period). So a picture would really help but yes it sounds like an IL NG disk.

Chris

 

Hey Chris, thanks for the reply. Here's a pic.

[NavyDude]

On 27/11/2019 at 17:26, 4thGordons said:

Welcome to the forum,

 

Any chance of a picture?

I work with the IL NG museum in Springfield and there are folks there who could certainly tell you but a picture would be helpful. (Ie I'm not sure how small the small letters etc) are.

There are designs with ILL as three letters straight across the center of the disk, some with a curved I straight L and cured L, and also some with large letters and a full-stop (period). So a picture would really help but yes it sounds like an IL NG disk.

Chris

 

Just checking back in with you, Chris. Any chance you've had time to review the pic I posted? Thanks! --Andy

[4thGordons]

Hello

Sorry. Yes I have seen it and have forwarded the image to folks at the museum.

They were closed Thurs through today for Thanksgiving - I would hope to know if they can give a timeperiod for the use of this style of disc in a day or so.

My suggestion would be that it was a pre war disk design that continued in widespread use during the war but I claim no real expertise in these.

I'll post back with any response I get.

 

Chris

[NavyDude]

Great, thank you!

[Customs gard]

Hello from Germany.

I just found this morning in Prag ! a rund infantry insigna from 17-18 with letters C (09:00 hour) H (12:00) and S (03:00) between the crossed rifles. 

Typical french fabrication with an oppening  needle .

Probably a specialised  training school (Scholl ?) for infantry in France, but witch one ?. Somebody could help me to be more precise ???

Many thanks in advance.

Gabelou

[Guest]

Hi, I found a World War 1 US army collar badge with three letters: VFW what do they mean? Thanks in advance for your collaboration.

 

Diameter: cm. 2,5. 

[FROGSMILE]

You will find information on US Army collar discs at the following links:

 

1.  http://hglanham.tripod.com/metalinsignia/collardisk1.html
 

2.  http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/185866-history-of-the-collar-disk/

[Edoguy1305]

VFW probably stands for "Veterans of Foreign Wars", a veteran's group dating back to 1899. It is not unheard of to have veterans organizations make such things as collar disks for their members after the war.

 

Guessing it looks something like this? (These are reproductions for sale on ebay).

[Guest]

Here is an interesting set of collar brass found on a US AEF tunic... never ran across quite this style before.  Any ideas on what the R M stands for ? Obviously it's something connected to the 6th Illinois Infantry.... 

 

[4thGordons]

I think it is probably the 6th Illinois RESERVE MILITIA. (sort of a WWI  "Home Guard")

After the "federalizing" of the National Guard units the states were left without any military forces so many created Reserve Militia type forces. In Illinois the legislation was passed in June of 1917 and in the end I believe there were 9 regiments created. 

I have a couple of "yardlong" photos of Reserve Militia units somewhere. Do you own the tunic  Mike? I'd be very interested in seeing the whole thing!

 

Chris (Springfield IL)

Edited 28 May , 2020 by 4thGordons

[Guest]

The uniform is all original, the brass ? A bit more research and you are 100% correct, the 6th Regiment Illinois Reserve Militia.  it also bears the following.... WW1 Victory Medal with the Aisne-Marne (Jul), Oise-Aisne (Aug), Meuse-Argonne (Sept) and Vittorio - Veneto (Oct) battle bars affixed. Two of the bars are brighter than the other two...possible added later. There is no division shoulder patch. There is a red discharge chevron and a single wound chevron and service chevron on the lower left and right arm. Out of place is the United States Boys Working Reserve 1918 honorable service pin on the left pocket flap.  I've never seen one on a soldiers uniform before, but perhaps they were authorized and even more interesting is the Fourragère aux couleurs de la Croix de Guerre looped around the left arm.  I suspect original pieces perhaps "made" into a fantasy uniform with misc parts. Perhaps a Veteran ? If it could only talk. Not my tunic... it's for sale in Galesburg, Ill. 

Edited 29 May , 2020 by Guest

[Customs gard]

On 08/03/2020 at 21:45, Customs gard said:

Hello from Germany.

I just found this morning in Prag ! a rund infantry insigna from 17-18 with letters C (09:00 hour) H (12:00) and S (03:00) between the crossed rifles. 

Typical french fabrication with an oppening  needle .

Probably a specialised  training school (Scholl ?) for infantry in France, but witch one ?. Somebody could help me to be more precise ???

Many thanks in advance.

Gabelou

Nobody know ? Better with a picture. Typical French work from 17-19.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Gabelou

[Customs gard]

Hello from Germany.

No idea ?

Could it bee a link between this CHS and the CPS presented by Lieut Mitter 2k1 in post 33 from 2014 ?

Yours sincerely

Gabelou

[Guest]

Hi have just discovered this fine Forum full of information and am wondering if you could help with a collar disk i.d please,

it's 2 crossed canons (artillery) but with the 93 below can only presume its the 93rd (blue helmets ?)

have found plenty of information on the 93rd but nothing on an artillery unit other than the 593rd.

also unusually it was found metal detecting in Warwickshire England any information gratefully received many thanks.

[Edoguy1305]

On 23/07/2020 at 09:02, benokio5 said:

Hi have just discovered this fine Forum full of information and am wondering if you could help with a collar disk i.d please,

it's 2 crossed canons (artillery) but with the 93 below can only presume its the 93rd (blue helmets ?)

have found plenty of information on the 93rd but nothing on an artillery unit other than the 593rd.

also unusually it was found metal detecting in Warwickshire England any information gratefully received many thanks.

This disk has me just as confused as you... Assuming that it is from a 93rd Division soilder, then the reason it says artillery is probably because that type of disk was whatever the supplier already had plenty of instock , so instead of prehaps having more infantry disks made they just slapped "93" onto an artillery disk. Although how you found that in England doesnt really make any sense. I think the more probable awnser is that the artillery insignia was used as a place holder for some other type of non-infantry unit (such as trench mortars, tank comapnies, etc.).  Researching anything with the number 93 is hard, as there is so many articles and lots of information about the 93rd Division because it is so iconic. Sifting through it all is difficult. Plus there is no 93rd regiment of anything, so it is more likley a smaller unit, making it even more hard to pinpoint as alot of small units do not have information about them avaliable. My advice would be to try and find any unit in the US military from 1910 to 1924 involving the number 93 that was in England at some point in time. This might takes days and you might not find anything, but its the only thing I could think of doing in your situation. 

 

The only other possibility I can see is that it is Canadian. Canadians using US uniforms in particular is not completley unheard of. US uniforms with Canadian insignia pop up every once in awhile. There is one Canadian unit, the 93rd Infantry Regiment, that this disk possibly could have belonged to. There were lots of Americans who enlisted in the Canadian military. It is not completley out of the question that someone already in the US army around 1915 decided to join the Canadian military in order to get into the war, and kept his US uniform. From there, he could have custom ordered a 93rd collar disk. Once in Britan, there is a good chance that he was forced to get rid of his US uniform and collar disk, and thats why it might have ened up in England. It is extremley far-fetched, but not impossible. Or another possibility is that someone got this disk in the US style for their canadian uniform, as from my very vauge understanding of Canadian uniforms there is also a place to put collar insignia on.

 

There really isn't a single thing about this disk that makes sense at all, so the things that im saying are just my guesses, but there really isnt much else to go on. I suppose if you could get a picture of the backside that might reveal something else. Sorry I can give you a definitive awnser, this thing is just, well, weird. The only thing for certain is that this disk is a Costal Artillery disk with the number 93 on it (There is US 93rd Coastal Artillery Regiment, but it was created during WWII, not WWI). 

It is Coastal Artillery due to the raised cannons incase you were wondering. Good luck researching!

Also here is a list of US WWI CA units, could not find 93.. https://cdsg.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/FORTS/CACunits/CACWWI.pdf

Edited 28 July , 2020 by Edoguy1305

[4thGordons]

L. Albert Scipio (The Collar Disk Story 1907-1999) p60-61 shows disks of this design  for "Seacoast Companies" and lists (somewhat cryptically)

 

2) First Seacoast Company:

        Bronze 1 through 170

        Gilt 2, 5, 11, 13, 14, 36, 55.

 

He shows images of disks with both cannons over 1 and cannons over 170 presumably to indicate the lower and upper end of the range.

If my interpretation is correct 93 would fall right in there.

 

Chris

 

Edit -

23 minutes ago, Edoguy1305 said:

The only thing for certain is that this disk is a Costal Artillery disk with the number 93 on it (There is US 93rd Coastal Artillery Regiment, but it was created during WWII, not WWI). 

BTW I believe Costal Artillery proper disks have a shell in the middle of the crossed cannons so I don't believe this is a Costal Artillery disk of the standard form. The SEACOAST COMPANIES (which I admit to not having a clue about) however do show crossed cannons with numbers below and no shell in the middle

 

Edited 29 July , 2020 by 4thGordons

[Guest]

 

4thGordons and Edoguy1305 Many thanks for all the information I will continue my research and will probably end up back here with something else.

[Gabelou]

On 29/06/2020 at 05:34, Customs gard said:

Hello from Germany.

No idea ?

Could it bee a link between this CHS and the CPS presented by Lieut Mitter 2k1 in post 33 from 2014 ?

Yours sincerely

Gabelou

No response received  for the moment but i want to share some reflecions with you.

 For Xmas my wife offered me the Scipio's reference book.  A great hope but also a deception : 

- no description of my  insigna,

- Scipio describe a similar insigna with HMA (H left , M medium hight, A right) and rifles. Classed in schools and university but without identification. 

- The fabrication of my insigna is obviousely French from 1917/18, and there is no description of similar US made or German made post 11/11/1918.

- Special training units were created in France  in 1917-18 to train  US units  ( infantry and other ) to modern trench war ( musquetery,  trench mortar, gas, signal, coordination with artillery, tanks...).

 

My suggestion is that this insigna belongs to one of these temporary training school ...or to another temporary US support unit in France in 17-19

 

Looking then to the letters HCS or CHS 

H : hight, hospital, heavy...

C : Central , citizen, civilian or a state ( California, Columbia, Connecticut)...

S : service, school, supply, signal...

I am unable to go  further for the moment.  Somebody can help me ?

 

I joust forget the most important : HAPPY NEW YEAR 2021 TO ALL OF US,in spite of Covid and other disagrements. 

yours sincerely

Gabelou

Customs guard.