Wozzer Posted 27 September , 2004 Posted 27 September , 2004 I was given this photo of my Great Grandad this weekend. His surname was Hughes and we think his first name was John. He died when my gran (who also passed away some thirty years ago) was a baby hence not sure of his first name. He died and was buried in France. My mother was told a story of how he heard a German soldier crying for his mother and he held him until he died and brought the his helmet back home when on leave. I'm going to try and trace this in our large family as my mother remembers seeing it! Can you tel from the picture what regiment he was in and any other information that it gives. The family was from Manchester. Any information, advice would be much appreciated. Thanks. W.
Desmond7 Posted 27 September , 2004 Posted 27 September , 2004 (edited) It looks like ASC - Army Service Corps - on his shoulder strap. There are others who can describe the role of the ASC much better than I can. Roughly they were a logistics and supply corps - rather like the Royal Corps of Transport (if they still exist). Thus he's wearing the cavalry style ammunition pouches crosswise over the body. Nice pic and I'm sure there are people here who could do a little surgery on it!! Cheers Des Phil got there before me! Edited 27 September , 2004 by Desmond7
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 27 September , 2004 Posted 27 September , 2004 ASC and looking at the trousers, he was a Horse Transport man - HT. The Royal Corps of Transport does not exist anymore, it was amalgamated into the Royal Logistics Corps. Ian
johnreed Posted 27 September , 2004 Posted 27 September , 2004 W I will enhanch and repair the picture for you it will take a couple of days but I have made a start. John
Wozzer Posted 27 September , 2004 Author Posted 27 September , 2004 Thanks guys, this is great. I see what you mean by the Horse Transport as he looks to be holding a long crop. I assume he's a private as theres no shirt and tie. Does the cap badge show anything as it's quite a distictive shape and it haven't seen one like it on the site - www.militarybadges.org.uk/. Also, excuse my ignorance but apart from ASC would there be any other information to find? Thanks again. W.
Wozzer Posted 27 September , 2004 Author Posted 27 September , 2004 Thanks for the cap badge. Is it me but the one in the photo seems to be wider with "wings" not a star?
Jock Bruce Posted 27 September , 2004 Posted 27 September , 2004 Thanks for the cap badge. Is it me but the one in the photo seems to be wider with "wings" not a star? I think the top half is in shadow - that's why you have the impression of 'wings' Jock
Wozzer Posted 27 September , 2004 Author Posted 27 September , 2004 On closer inspection I think you are right and the top of the cap is obscuring the badge. I've found a j Hughes on the CWGC, a driver in the ASC with the prefix T3. Does T3 mean horse transport?
johnreed Posted 27 September , 2004 Posted 27 September , 2004 Could the badge be the Army Remount Service i.e. Superimposed on crossed whips a horseshoe with, in the centre, a horse standing on a scroll inscribed Remounts. Not ASC but ARS. Just a thought John
Jock Bruce Posted 27 September , 2004 Posted 27 September , 2004 On closer inspection I think you are right and the top of the cap is obscuring the badge. I've found a j Hughes on the CWGC, a driver in the ASC with the prefix T3. Does T3 mean horse transport? Wozzer, be very careful - there is no guarantee he was still serving in the ASC when he was killed .... men were transfered from corps to corps. All you can say on the evidence you have is that he was serving in the ASC on the day the picture was taken. Although interestingly enough the J Hughes you've found on CWGC was born in, lived in and enlisted in Manchester. And the T number does indicate Horse Transport. But according to Soldiers Died in the Great War his first name was James. Jock Bruce
Wozzer Posted 27 September , 2004 Author Posted 27 September , 2004 Thanks for that Jock. I've been speaking to my mother... She's going to get as much info as possible and maybe we can get a full name, she "thinks" it was John but I'll get it clarified. Could we find out his DOB and home address from tracing back from my Gran's (his Daughters) details? She's told me he was in his twenties when he died. He lived and would have enlisted in Manchester but she thinks he was originally from Wales (hence Hughes). He certainly died and was buried in France. I'd really like to find out as much as possible, it's been quite poignant finding this photo. W.
jim_davies Posted 28 September , 2004 Posted 28 September , 2004 Wozzer, You may want to try to get hold of your grandmother's birth certificate. This should show her father's full name age, occupation etc at the time of her birth. This should help you narrow down the John Hughes you're looking for.' There is also a John Hughes who died of wounds in 1918, serving with the ASC. He was from Anglesey but had his wife living at Holyhead. And John Hughes who enlisted at Llandudno, formerly 216830 ASC, who died in Nov 1917 while serving with the 21st Northumberland Fus. Good luck, Jim
steve fuller Posted 28 September , 2004 Posted 28 September , 2004 Wozzer Have a look at the 1901 census and add the info from that to what you have from here; between the 2 you should be able to eliminate most Hughes's & see who youre left with. May be lucky & identify him easily, but even if you can narrow it down to a small handful, it will improve the odds of finding him! Good luck mate Steve
Wozzer Posted 23 August , 2006 Author Posted 23 August , 2006 Since my last posting (time has flown) I've managed to trace more information and any help would be appreciated. John James Hughes is the correct name. Born 1891 (no exact birth date yet). On marriage cert. Married 3/2/1912 Mcr reg office John James Hughes b.1891 Occ. Fruit Carter John Lived there when married 8 Robinson st East manchester. Father John occupation Brick Setter. Married Esther Hyland Born 1892 Occ. Tobasco Spinner (??????) 57 Elizabeth St Ancoats We know from the picture he was in the ASC and a horseman at some point. Thought to have died near the end of the war or just after it ended. Help!!!! I can visit the National Archive in the near future. Thanks W.
Patricia Posted 23 August , 2006 Posted 23 August , 2006 Did you check out the 1901 census as suggested above? You can do it on line http://www.1901census.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
delta Posted 23 August , 2006 Posted 23 August , 2006 Have chekced the CWGC site but so far can only find one ASC soldier (died 11916 to 1921). He was called John Tudor Hughes who died 1916 and was a MT driver not a horse transport man. There are two JJ Hughes - one was a "Die Hard" ie a Middlesez Regt man who transferred to the Labour Corps - the other was in the Machien Gun Corps. Will check the Medal Index Card dtabase but as there are 116 J Hughes so it could take some time
delta Posted 23 August , 2006 Posted 23 August , 2006 MIC possibilities Pte John J Hughes ASC - options 3 x MT drivers M2/132199, M/298659 amd M2/074195 2 x Horse transport men = T4-216371 and T4/065356 But the medals cards are not always accurate
Wozzer Posted 1 September , 2006 Author Posted 1 September , 2006 MIC possibilities Pte John J Hughes ASC - options 3 x MT drivers M2/132199, M/298659 amd M2/074195 2 x Horse transport men = T4-216371 and T4/065356 But the medals cards are not always accurate Thanks Delta, Can the numbers above be checked against any other information which would show DOB, Date of Death, Address etc? P.S. No joy with 1901 census.
Wozzer Posted 21 April , 2017 Author Posted 21 April , 2017 I can't believe it was 2004 when I first received the photo of my Great Grandad which set me on this road, but I've now, after researching my family tree traced his military info. It's been emotional and poignant, especially as he died just 6 days before the Armistice. He was a matter of days from four years of service and whilst I'm guessing he wasn't on the front line, god knows what those years must have been like. I'm no expert in these matters so If anyone can help fill in anymore detail with their fantastic knowledge that would be great. Thanks Warren.
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 21 April , 2017 Posted 21 April , 2017 (edited) I see you have found his service record. Very sad. He died of bronchopneumonia caused by influenza. He seems to have been in 185 Coy (HT) ASC. This was the No 4 Company of the 21st Divisional Train, and was on the Western Front throughout the war.. For a detailed resume of this company's function & location, you could either go to Kew and consult for free the diaries that are in 2 boxes: WO95/2149 and WO95/2150 There must be a lot in these, because if you want to download them, you'll need to download 6 files (at £3.50 each). WO95/2149/2 Sep1915-Dec 1916 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353154 WO95/2150/1 Jan-Apr 1917 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14054183 WO95/2150/2 May-Oct 1917 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14054184 WO95/2150/3 Nov 1917-Apr 1918 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C14054185 WO95/2150/4 May - Oct 1918 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14054186 WO95/2150/5 Nov 1918-May 1919 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14054187 These files also contain the diaries for 182,183, & 184 Companies. The first file is about 660MB!!! Edited 21 April , 2017 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
Wozzer Posted 22 April , 2017 Author Posted 22 April , 2017 Thank you Dai. I live in London so a trip to Kew isn't a problem, probably cheaper than the cost of the downloads! So am I right that a Division was a major group of soldiers and he would have been attached to the 21st Division, no doubt involved in the supply of ammunition and supplies? Can you explain the 185 Coy and No.4 Company element? Thanks in advance.
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 22 April , 2017 Posted 22 April , 2017 1 hour ago, Wozzer said: Thank you Dai. I live in London so a trip to Kew isn't a problem, probably cheaper than the cost of the downloads! OK. While you're actually at Kew, I believe that you can obtain the digital downloads fee of charge. (Someone else will confirm that though I hope). 1 hour ago, Wozzer said: So am I right that a Division was a major group of soldiers and he would have been attached to the 21st Division, no doubt involved in the supply of ammunition and supplies? The British army was divided into about 70 divisions, plus another 30 odd from all over the Empire. A division was roughly 10,000-12,000 men. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/ The ASC was a separate formation to the ordinary Corps and divisions of the army. The ASC however provided virtually all the logistics- transport of men, machines, ammunition, food etc, TO the rest of the army. The ASC was made up of around 1200 numbered companies. In this case companies 182,183,184,185 were what was known as the "Train" companies for the 21st Division. This basically meant they were the Horse Transport companies providing the logistics to 21st Division. They weren't In 21st Division, merely 'attached' to it. 1 hour ago, Wozzer said: Can you explain the 185 Coy and No.4 Company element? 182 (HT) Company ASC was thus No 1 Company (HT), Train, 21st Division, 183 was No 2, 184 was No3, 184 was No 4. When you get to Kew, you need to order the box files WO95/2149 and WO2150 These boxes will be subdivided into folders by date and company, the contents of which I've listed above. Good luck with your searches.
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