Keith Neail Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 Many thanks again Is there anyway I can find out when he was promoted from private to Lance Corporal? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 Keith I would strongly recommend getting a short term sub to Findmypast where 3 sets of detailed records are to be found. He has a long list of postings and dates and went in and out of the appointment of L Cpl like a fiddler's elbow! There is also interesting stuff about his misdemeanours, wounding and dubious medical history! Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 3 hours ago, charlie962 said: War Diary for 10th Bn here describing actions 2-4 July 1916 and mentions C company. Total Bn Casualties that period about 130 men. Charlie Many thanks again Is there anyway I can find out when he was promoted from Private to Lance Corporal ? ? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 2 hours ago, MaxD said: interesting stuff about his misdemeanours It wasn't him in 4th Bn that went awol was it ? 3 hours ago, MaxD said: 3 sets of detailed records are to be found I'd like to see if my educated guesses are anywhere near the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 16 minutes ago, charlie962 said: It wasn't him in 4th Bn that went awol was it ? I'd like to see if my educated guesses are anywhere near the reality. Wow this is interesting Haven't been on "Find My Past" as yet, any guesses or clues would be appreciated, won't sleep tonight thinking what they may be Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 OK both, I need a little time to work through the record. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 Many thanks to both of you for your input, I'm new to all this so not really sure where to look Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 Summary attached. RSI and eye strain setting in. Leave you to cross check Charlie! Max Neail.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 August , 2018 Share Posted 11 August , 2018 6 minutes ago, MaxD said: Leave you to cross check Charlie! Very interesting. So it was him who 'deserted' or went awol - saw the record on FWR but it didn't give a service number. I will look at the rest tomorrow. Its just getting dark and I must go out to deal with a wasp nest. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 Keith A lot for you to digest, do ask if I/we have skated over too many things! Your earlier question about his MM award was covered by Charlie in post No 11 in which he directed us to the recommendation in the war diary. The action took place on 20/22 Sep 1917 and there is an account (rather faded) in the war diary. The two pages are attached. I'll follow this up in a mo with the relevant location. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 (Referring to the trench map and present day image at the link below - use your mouse/slider to move the cursor on both images) The objective of the battalion in the attack was the sector of the enemy trenches that ran between Square J 26 c (about where the Kleiner Ieperstraat runs now) south to Square 31 b (pretty much where Kranenburg Farm is now). The area is to the south east of Ypres past Zillebeke towards Klien Zillebeke. A google search on Zillebeke then move a little to the south east and the odd shaped wood with a square hole in it at 50 49 19 N 02 57 55 E should be relatable to both images. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=50.8251&lon=2.9663&layers=101464645&right=BingHyb Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 1 hour ago, MaxD said: (Referring to the trench map and present day image at the link below - use your mouse/slider to move the cursor on both images) The objective of the battalion in the attack was the sector of the enemy trenches that ran between Square J 26 c (about where the Kleiner Ieperstraat runs now) south to Square 31 b (pretty much where Kranenburg Farm is now). The area is to the south east of Ypres past Zillebeke towards Klien Zillebeke. A google search on Zillebeke then move a little to the south east and the odd shaped wood with a square hole in it at 50 49 19 N 02 57 55 E should be relatable to both images. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=50.8251&lon=2.9663&layers=101464645&right=BingHyb Max Thanks Max, that's brilliant, very much appreciated, how do you know all this stuff Think I'm slowly getting there, will send you my timeline when done Bit of a bad lad my Great Uncle Herbert Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 7 hours ago, MaxD said: (Referring to the trench map and present day image at the link below - use your mouse/slider to move the cursor on both images) The objective of the battalion in the attack was the sector of the enemy trenches that ran between Square J 26 c (about where the Kleiner Ieperstraat runs now) south to Square 31 b (pretty much where Kranenburg Farm is now). The area is to the south east of Ypres past Zillebeke towards Klien Zillebeke. A google search on Zillebeke then move a little to the south east and the odd shaped wood with a square hole in it at 50 49 19 N 02 57 55 E should be relatable to both images. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=50.8251&lon=2.9663&layers=101464645&right=BingHyb Max Hi Max What do you think? Been working on it all day Keith Herbert Neail - Timeline 12-Aug-2018 18-15-33.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 (edited) Keith Is it possible to pivot your spreadsheets so I don't twist my kneck? I'm not techy enough to do it myself. OK I've found your pdf which I can rotate. I note a couple of corrections. 6/7/16 when shipped to UK he would be removed from 10th Bn strength and quite normally posted to the Depot. The service record confirms this. When posted back to France 22 Jan 1917 the service record says BEF 1st Bn- that would be a nominal unit for record purpose, I suspect that he may well have remained at Base Depot until posted to 17th Bn 3 weeks later. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Incidentally the 1st Bn would be offended to be called a Service Bn. Clearly a troublemaker back in UK but a very useful man when at the Front ! Charlie edit- another correction. Battle Operation for which MM recommended was -22/9 not 26/9/17 The Battle of the Menin Rd seems to be given the dates 20-25/9/17 per LLT Edited 12 August , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 Splendid work! (Charlie - save the PDF, open it and click on the centre, gives the option to rotate). Some points: Spelling of Battalion in body of the table (sometimes) 4th Reserve Bn at Sunderland No “service” with 1st Battalion (term referred to New Army units not regulars) Appointed rather than approved with promotions Spelling In Memoriam You could show his medal trio? 4/5 July 1916 could add treated No 2 General Hospital Le Havre then “Egypt” (he went via 45 Casualty Clearing Station but I haven’t been able to find its location before September 1916!) FP No 1 allowed only up to 2 hours a day for max 21 days fixed to an object FP No 2 allowed handcuffs but not permanently – he still had to march and carry his kit Tried by DISTRICT Court Martial… Not sure where “when out of the line” comes from in the MM 4 Nov 17?? Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 Forgot to add, well done in setting out all this info in a spreadsheet Keith. Becomes much easier to follow. I like the marginal badge, medal etc. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 12 August , 2018 Share Posted 12 August , 2018 (edited) Once again thanks to you all. I will make the alterations Max, just one point, re the pdf you sent me, would he have got his MM as part of the attack by the CO of the 16th Bn at the Battle of The Menin Road Bridge All the best Keith Edited 12 August , 2018 by Keith Neail Mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 13 August , 2018 Share Posted 13 August , 2018 Keith Don't know. The action for which he was recommended was the battalion's part in the 39 Division's contribution to what was later called the Battle of the Menin Road [Ridge]. What part he played in the account in the war diary can only be guessed at, he was one of twelve whose actions were thought warranted an MM. Presumably you are looking at the action by C Company in support of 16 Bn at 11 15? The closest I would go is to say that "his award may well have been for his part in taking and consolidating a position during the morning" Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 13 August , 2018 Share Posted 13 August , 2018 20 hours ago, clk said: Hi, If the record only shows 'GSW' and doesn't expand ( I haven't read it), equally likely (possibly more so) a shrapnel rather than a bullet wound. Regards Chris Edit: Seems that 14.8.1917 - 25.8.1917 (17th Bn, mis-spelt as Neal) at 4 Stationary Hospital with dental caries - FMP here. So not at the battle of Langemark? Hi Chris Not quite sure what your edit means. Does it mean he was in hospital over that period and if so is 4 stationary hospital in France? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 13 August , 2018 Share Posted 13 August , 2018 8 hours ago, MaxD said: Keith Don't know. The action for which he was recommended was the battalion's part in the 39 Division's contribution to what was later called the Battle of the Menin Road [Ridge]. What part he played in the account in the war diary can only be guessed at, he was one of twelve whose actions were thought warranted an MM. Presumably you are looking at the action by C Company in support of 16 Bn at 11 15? The closest I would go is to say that "his award may well have been for his part in taking and consolidating a position during the morning" Max Thanks Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 13 August , 2018 Share Posted 13 August , 2018 (edited) It would be worth checking to see if there are citations or newspaper reports for any of the other men listed that day. May mention they worked with .... DCM citations are readily available. MM citations, like for Neail, will not have survived but may be covered by a local newspaper report or perhaps listed due to research done by someone else. NB same would go for the officers listed in that recommendation. Charlie Here is Bowler Warrington seems to have ended up with an MM not a DCM. Edited 13 August , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 August , 2018 Share Posted 14 August , 2018 Here are the DSO and MC citations I could find. I'm not sure what happened to Boswell's and Bracewell's recommendations. But all these citations haven't given any pointers to Neail although they due amplify the operational report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Neail Posted 14 August , 2018 Share Posted 14 August , 2018 10 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Here are the DSO and MC citations I could find. I'm not sure what happened to Boswell's and Bracewell's recommendations. But all these citations haven't given any pointers to Neail although they due amplify the operational report. Thanks again Charlie Hopefully he was part of the same attack which gives me some idea of his action Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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