16th Bat Sherwood Foresters 3 Sept 1916

[Malc Knowles]

My Great Uncle Lance Corporal 19118 William Thomas HALL was killed in action on the 3rd of September 1916 and is buried in Knightsbridge Cemetry, Mesnil-Martinsart.

Does anyone have the Diaries for the day or knowledge of any books that may tell the story ?

I am planning a visit and would like to research as much as i can beforehand.

Regards

Malc Knowles

[stevem49]

Had a look in 'The Somme, Day by day account, Chris McCarthy' and it only mentions 17th bn. The Brigade were in the area in front (ish) of Hamel - Auchonvillers with the left of the Brigade being Mary Redan, about half a mile from Beaumont Hamel. I am sure someone has written a book on the Chatsworth Rifles but for the life of me cannot remember who.

He either went up with the 17th Bn or more likely the 16th were in close reserve.

One of the few diaries I do not have !

Steve M

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

I have this on him, its from the web somewhere but I cannot recall where.

b. Bermondsey; e. Chesterfield; r. Chesterfield.

A resident of Derby Road he enlisted in November 1914 and had been employed as a grocer in Low Pavements. He left a widow of one year.

Operations on the Ancre, 3rd September 1916

For the attack the 39th Division were arranged as follows:-

116th Brigade on the right

117th Brigade on the left

118th Brigade in reserve

The 117th Brigade attacked with the 16th Battn Rifle Brigade on the right and the 17th Battn Sherwood Forester on the left. The 17th K.R.R.C. were in support and the 16th S.F. were in reserve.

The attack started at 5.10am after an intensive bombardment lasting four minutes. The 17/SF successfully reached the German 1st and 2nd lines. However, following several unsuccessful attempts the 16/RB were unable to hold their objective and as a consequence the 17/SF were forced to retire. As a whole the Division were unable to reach and consolidate their objectives.

During this attack the 16/SF were employed primarily as carrying parties for the assaulting Battalions, several of which reached the German lines and made several trips across No Mans Land under a very heavy artillery barrage.

The loses to the 117th Brigade were very heavy and the casualties to the 16/SF were as follows:-

Killed - 2nd Lieut F.H. Chappel

Wounded - Lieut J Brown and 2/Lieuts Hastings, Benner and Simpson

Other ranks - 9 killed; 78 wounded (3 of which later died of their wounds); 6 missing

Following the attack the Battn were relieved in the front line by the 118th Bde and were billeted for the night in Mailly Wood.

Regards,

Graeme

[Malc Knowles]

Steve and Graeme

Many thanks

I have researched the book you mentioned but unfortunately it is no longer in print.

Thanks again for your efforts

Malc

[barkalotloudly]

^{I have a copy of the 16th battalion history {Chatsworth Rifles} William Hall is mentioned in the roll of honour there is also a 2/3 page account of the operations on the 3/9/1916 interesting he is listed as private {no.26788}}

[LucyCK]

Hello all,

Sorry to butt in on your discussion- a fellow member pointed me this way!

I've been trying to find out what happened to Private Harry Caukill 32475 of 16th (Service) Battalion (Chatsworth Rifles). He died in Belgium on 30th July 1917. I think they were part of the battle of Pilckem Ridge 31/07-02/08 1917.

You mention a copy of the battalion's history- where might I find a copy of this? Or perhaps you could tell me if Harry's listed in it?

Many thanks

Lucy

[redbarchetta]

Malc,

As just suggested to Lucy, the book 'Joffrey's War', edited by John Bourne and Bob Bushaway, is the very detailed story of one member of the Chatworth Rifles, 16th Bn. William Hall doesn't get a mention by name (nor does Harry Caukill I'm afraid), but this will certainly give you the story of his time in the battalion.

James

[Malc Knowles]

Many thanks to you all.

it is much appreciated

Malc

[mikebriggs]

Just to let the forum know

I have posted PDF copies of the 16th Battalion History on this web page:-

http://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/regimental-histories/

Please help yourself

and enjoy the rest of the web site and even post a comment

Over time i will upload more of the diaries/histories that I have.

[Keith Neail]

My Great Uncle Lance Corporal Herbert Neail MM (13737) was reported killed in action on 25th March 2018, he was awarded the Military Medal in 1917/1918. Is there any way in finding out the reason for the award

Regards

Keith Neail 

[charlie962]

Welcome to the Forum Keith.

 

Does Truscott's History of 16th give anything ? I have a copy somewhere.  the MM was in London Gazette 14/1/18 and he is noted as 17th Bn.  He was presumably trf'd to 16th Bn in Feb 1918 when 17th was disbanded in the BEF wide reorganisation?

 

Like many who were lost that day in the big retreat, there was uncertainty as to his fate. I see his mother enquired of ICRC in case he had been taken prisoner. Reply was 'negatif'.  But interestingly it says he was stretcher bearer with A Company.  Plenty of scope for earning an MM in that role.

                      

 

Have you tried local newspapers ?

 

Charlie

 

War Diary 17th Bn 25/9/17 has list of men recommended for  MM for gallantry and devotion to duty in action of 20-22/9/1917. Includes Pte H Neail 13737

 

If you look at the same war diary for July 1917 you will see him on the list of wounded, Pte, C Company, action of 31/7/17.  This wounding subsequently noted in Daily Casualty List 8/9/17

Edited 31 July , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Keith Neail said:

My Great Uncle Lance Corporal Herbert Neail MM (13737)

You will also find records for his even  earlier wounding in early July 1916 under hospital admissions, available through Findmypast or ForcesWarRecords. That record says C Coy 10th Bn. 

 

I don't know how much you have searched so far for basic records like Medal Rolls, Medal Index Card as well as CWGC, SDGW and Soldiers Effects ? Long Long Trail has explanation of these under researching a soldier.

 

The Medal Roll confirms that he went from 10th Bn to 17th Bn to 16th Bn.

 

Charlie

Edited 31 July , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, clk said:

MM citations are difficult to research,

Chris, I've edited my post 11 to add the War Diary details of his MM recommendation. I have the annoying habit of tinkering with a post if I find extra info before another post appears ! Charlie

Edited 31 July , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

21 hours ago, clk said:

his service file says

Chris, I see you found something on FMP but I'm blowed if I can find it on Ancestry?

 

Truscott's 'short' History says that on 8th Feb 1918 the old A Coy of 16th Bn was trf'd to fill up B,C and D Coy of the 16th.  A new A Coy was formed from Officers and 150 ORs of the 17th Bn which was disbanded on that day. So Neial must logically have been part of this block trf from the 17th Bn and as the ICRC record shows he was still A Coy at time of his death. I presume also that he had been a stretcher bearer in the 17th although I have no proof.

 

Charlie

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, clk said:

Personally, I don't find the search on Ancestry for service papers is as easy as it is on FMP.

I agree 100%.  So I search on FMP to see if something exists then persist with Ancestry (pathetic, I call that). But this one I cannot find.

Charlie

[Keith Neail]

On ‎31‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 21:00, Keith Neail said:

My Great Uncle Lance Corporal Herbert Neail MM (13737) was reported killed in action on 25th March 2018, he was awarded the Military Medal in 1917/1918. Is there any way in finding out the reason for the award

Regards

Keith Neail 

I would just like to say a huge thank you to Mike Briggs, Charlie 962 and CLK for the information re my enquiry on my Great Uncle Lance Corporal Herbert Neail MM (13737)

 

It has opened up a whole new line of research for me and somehow, I still hope to find out the reason for his award of the M.M.

 

Best Regards

 

Keith Neail

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Keith Neail said:

I still hope to find out the reason for his award of the M.M.

Post back on this thread of you do !

 

Charlie

[Keith Neail]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Post back on this thread of you do !

 

Charlie

Hi

I am trying to sort a timeline on Herbert Neail. Would you know when he was transferred from the 10th battalion to the 17th battalion.

Thanks again

Keith Neail 

[Keith Neail]

I

[charlie962]

49 minutes ago, Keith Neail said:

Would you know when he was transferred from the 10th battalion to the 17th battalion.

Might it have been after his wounding July 1916 ( or August 1917  edit- cannot be that  because he's in 17th CasList !)? If he was away from the 10th for a long time he would be posted to Base then when recovered could well be posted to a different Battalion, depending on who needed reinforcing at the time.

 

Charlie

Edited 10 August , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

There is an 'in memoriam notice' in 1920 worth checking out. mentions another family member.

          

          

 

Did his service file not show a posting date ? As I said I couldn't find a copy on Ancestry and I don't have FMP.

 

Charlie

[Keith Neail]

9 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There is an 'in memoriam notice' in 1920 worth checking out. mentions another family member.

          

          

 

Did his service file not show a posting date ? As I said I couldn't find a copy on Ancestry and I don't have FMP.

 

Charlie

Wow, you certainly know your stuff.

Thanks again

Keith 

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Keith Neail said:

Would you know when he was transferred from the 10th battalion to the 17th battalion.

If you go through the WarDiary for 17th Bn you may come across entries like this for 2/9/16 which could include him ?

                                

 

Similarly you may find an entry in 10th Bn Diary, perhaps explaining why. Maybe particular skills ? Who was the officer ?

 

Charlie

 

[charlie962]

18 hours ago, Keith Neail said:

Would you know when he was transferred from the 10th battalion to the 17th battalion

Looking at the Hospital Admission for July 1916 it does show that he was sent to the Hospital Ship Egypt, having suffered GunShotWound face   II 1

The LongLongTrail here tells us it means :

    II. Gunshot wounds of the face
1. Simple flesh contusions and wounds

 

But it still implies repatriation to UK. I suspect with the Somme Campaign the casualties of all levels not capable of immediate treatment would be cleared to UK as rapidly as possible leaving Continental hospitals available for the next huge intake.

 

So I guess he may have been posted to a different Bn on return from UK.

 

Strangely there is no 'mirror' image in the War Diary of 10th Bn to that extract I posted about trfs 10th to 17th Bn  in Sept 1916 that I saw in 17th Bn War Diary.

 

Charlie

 

NB for your Timeline you will find his first date of entry to theatre of war on his medal index card and you could estimate his original date of enlistment from Soldiers Effects. But then maybe you have all this from his Service Record ?  The Hospital Admission July 1916 says at the time he had 1 year's enlisted service with 11 mths at the front. Doesn't seem right unless he was already a trained soldier. Could be transcription errors?

 

[charlie962]

War Diary for 10th Bn here describing actions 2-4 July 1916 and mentions C company. Total Bn Casualties that period about 130 men.

 

Charlie