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Remembered Today:

1/5th Northumberland Fus transferred to 25th Batt Tyneside Irish - but


Wend

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Hello everyone

I am a newbie and this is my first posting, so I hope I have the correct Forum.

My great uncle Arthur Clayton born 1891 Staddlethorpe, Gilberdyke, Nr Hull, East Yorkshire and died 1 Sep 1917 Picardie, France.

According to info on Ancestry for his death it states the following:

Name: Arthur Clayton Birth Place: Gilberdyke, Yorks Death Date: 1 Sep 1917 Death Location: France & Flanders Enlistment Location: Hull Rank: Private Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers Battalion: 25th Battalion (Tyneside Irish) Number: 267192 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre Comments: Formerly 7728, 1/5Th Northumberland Fusiliers

My queries are:

1. I cannot find his WW1 Service Records so how does Ancestry know he signed up at Hull, we don't have a date for his enlistment either. Also how

would Ancestry know his former Battalion.

2. I have read the info for the 1/5 and 1/4th N Fus but I cannot find info relating to anyone being transferred to the 25th Batt Tyneside Irish.

3. We are not sure if he freely signed-up or if he was conscripted, but either way would he have been given a Battalion and joined immediately or would he have returned home and awaited further instructions as the 1/5th N Fus was conducted at Walker, Northumberland.

4. I also know he is not listed in the Sheen book Tyneside Irish as he was not initially in the Tyneside Irish to start with, this I know from Mr Sheen himself.

5. Where would he have seen action with both Battalions.

I await for anyone that can help me with any information to my queries,

Kind regards

Wend

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Hello everyone

I am a newbie and this is my first posting, so I hope I have the correct Forum.

My great uncle Arthur Clayton born 1891 Staddlethorpe, Gilberdyke, Nr Hull, East Yorkshire and died 1 Sep 1917 Picardie, France.

According to info on Ancestry for his death it states the following:

Name: Arthur Clayton Birth Place: Gilberdyke, Yorks Death Date: 1 Sep 1917 Death Location: France & Flanders Enlistment Location: Hull Rank: Private Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers Battalion: 25th Battalion (Tyneside Irish) Number: 267192 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre Comments: Formerly 7728, 1/5Th Northumberland Fusiliers

My queries are:

1. I cannot find his WW1 Service Records so how does Ancestry know he signed up at Hull, we don't have a date for his enlistment either. Also how

would Ancestry know his former Battalion.

2. I have read the info for the 1/5 and 1/4th N Fus but I cannot find info relating to anyone being transferred to the 25th Batt Tyneside Irish.

3. We are not sure if he freely signed-up or if he was conscripted, but either way would he have been given a Battalion and joined immediately or would he have returned home and awaited further instructions as the 1/5th N Fus was conducted at Walker, Northumberland.

4. I also know he is not listed in the Sheen book Tyneside Irish as he was not initially in the Tyneside Irish to start with, this I know from Mr Sheen himself.

5. Where would he have seen action with both Battalions.

I await for anyone that can help me with any information to my queries,

Kind regards

Wend

Hi Wend,

Welcome to the Forum.

The information regarding his place of enlistment and previous unit will most probably have come from Soldiers Died in the Great War. It is possible that he was wounded with the 1/5th Bn and then sent to the 25th Bn as a replacement following his recovery. He would have served only in France and Flanders with either of these battalions. It is of course possible that he never served overseas with the 1/5th but was only sent to France in 1916 as a replacement for the massive casualties suffered by the 25th Bn on the Somme.

Hope this helps?

Robert

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Hi Wend,

I have just checked his MIC and he can only have gone to France after 1/1/16. His long 6 figure number is the later Territorial number issued during 1917, so he probably went overseas after 1/1/17--although I am not certain about this.

It will be worth checking the local newspaper around the time of his death, as this may well fill in some of the missing information which you seek.

Robert

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Hi Robert

Many thanks for some good pointers.

I will have to visit my local library which has the local newspapers for this area, hopefully I may find more info.

Arthur and his brother both died within 7 months of each other, Arthur has no grave, comemorated at Thiepval and Fred is buried.

Their mother hoped the rest of her life that Arthur would be found and laid to rest in a "rightful manner" alas it will never be.

Wend

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5. Where would he have seen action with both Battalions.

Wend

This would depend upon when he joined the respective unit.

The 1/5th were part of the 50th Northumbrian Division.

From the Long Long Trail http://www.1914-1918.net/50div.htm

The Tyneside Irish were part of the 34th Division (apart from a period after the Somme when they were regenerated and served with the 34th Division)

From the Long Long Trail http://www.1914-1918.net/34div.htm

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He was actually 4/7230 Pte Arthur Clayton, initially serving with the 1/4th Bn, N.F.. From here he was posted to the 1/6th Bn and renumbered 6/7728, and while with the Battalion he had three bouts of 'sickness' which caused hospitalization 18th November 1916; 5th December 1916 & 13th January 1917. On recovery he was renumbered once again as 267192 and shortly therafter posted to the 24th Bn, N.F. and from there to the 25th Bn, N.F. with whom he killed on the 1st September 1917

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Many thanks to ianjonescl and Graham Stewart.

Graham how do you know this info and where have you found it please ???

Wend

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Many thanks to ianjonescl and Graham Stewart.

Graham how do you know this info and where have you found it please ???

Wend

Taken from numerous sources - this includes the N.F. Medal Rolls and War Diary of the 1/6th Bn, where his sickness is recorded. You have him listed as 1/5th Bn, but I'm afraid this is incorrect. The Nominal Roll in John's Book "Tyneside Irish" deals solely with the 'original' members of the T.I. as they enlisted and not later transfers.

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Hello Graham

Many thanks for that info and where you obtained it.

Me and my cousin have been confused about his various Battalions for some time and different sites have different information about these too, this is why I had

decided to ask on here to see what others could tell me.

I do appreciate your time and help, at last this is now sorted and we at least know a little more about his time in the war.

Kind regards

Wend

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Hi

Forgot to mention that later this morning I am visiting the local library to search through the newspapers to see if anything is written about Arthur and his brother Fred

and their deaths.

Wend

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Hi

Forgot to mention that later this morning I am visiting the local library to search through the newspapers to see if anything is written about Arthur and his brother Fred

and their deaths.

Wend

Local newspapers are always a good and often overlooked source, especially when it comes to obituaries, as many do have photo's. By 1917 though it seems the general public were tiring of the War and there doesn't seem to be the more personal columns that there had been earlier on. If you do come across photo's of either I for one would appreciate it, if you could apply them to this post, as it's always nice to see exactly who it is we're discussing.

Regards

Graham.

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Well after 3 hours of searching through the newspapers I found nothing about Arthur or Fred. I think they may have been reported in the Hull Daily Mail so I will have to

make arrangements to visit Hull History Centre.

Photographs, we have one of one of them, in army uniform and one of Fred's grave, but I will have to ask my cousin to resend them as my comp got a virus some time ago and I lost a lot of files.

Arthur is commemorated at Thiepval Memorial - Plot: Pier and Face 10 B 11 B and 12 B I can post a photograph of Thiepval Memorial.

Wend

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Arthur Clayton - Notification to his Mother Clayton Arthur notification to Mother.jpg


Arthur Clayton - Roll of HonourClayton Arthur Roll of Honour.jpg


Arthur & Fred Clayton - MemoriamClayton Memoriam Arthur and Fred.jpg


Arthur's brother Fred Clayton - Killed in ActionClayton Fred Killed in Action.jpg

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post-103886-0-56354700-1384804959_thumb.

post-103886-0-22311800-1384805014_thumb.

post-103886-0-90679800-1384805084_thumb.

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  • 9 months later...

I notice from the newspaper detailing Arthur's death, 1st Sep 1917, it states he had only just returned to France a few weeks ago after being in hospital in England, so he had again been hospitalised, unless he had been in hospital since January 1917 ?? would "sickness" have caused such a lengthy stay in hospital??

In a letter home from his brother Fred, he says that Art (as he was known) should be discharged, "he owt to be and should be", by the way the letter is wrote it seems that Fred, also in France, knew about what was happening to Arthur and hoped that Arthur would be successful, so this makes me wonder if Arthur had applied for medical discharge and we are now beginning to wonder if Arthur had some medical recurring problem that caused these "hospitalisations" if this was the case then why wasn't he discharged as medically unfit. I don't ever recall my Nanna saying that her brother was an unwell man nor that either had been in hospital, although she spoke of her brothers most often and ensured we all knew that they gave the ultimate sacrifice.

As we are now remembering WW1 more indepth, some 25 miles away in Hull a local history centre have asked if I would approve of them using my research material for Arthur & Fred for inclusion in an exhibition, as a family we are very proud and honoured that we have been asked and we can provide good factual evidence for them both including their Dead Man's Penny's, photographs, war service record for Fred, their letters home and other information, but without the help of sites like this I wouldn't have had the pieces of information like Arthur's "sickness" hospitalisations etc., so on behalf of my cousins and my family I thank you, we will do justice to them both in this exhibition and if I am allowed I will get some photographs and post on here as I will other sites that have helped me.

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  • 5 years later...

Hello there,

 

I was just reading this piece and would love a copy of the letters the Clayton's sent. I am related through there mother Elizabeth Clayton.

 

Many thanks Rob

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  • 5 months later...

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