Wend Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Hello everyone I am a newbie and this is my first posting, so I hope I have the correct Forum. My great uncle Arthur Clayton born 1891 Staddlethorpe, Gilberdyke, Nr Hull, East Yorkshire and died 1 Sep 1917 Picardie, France. According to info on Ancestry for his death it states the following: Name: Arthur Clayton Birth Place: Gilberdyke, Yorks Death Date: 1 Sep 1917 Death Location: France & Flanders Enlistment Location: Hull Rank: Private Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers Battalion: 25th Battalion (Tyneside Irish) Number: 267192 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre Comments: Formerly 7728, 1/5Th Northumberland Fusiliers My queries are: 1. I cannot find his WW1 Service Records so how does Ancestry know he signed up at Hull, we don't have a date for his enlistment either. Also how would Ancestry know his former Battalion. 2. I have read the info for the 1/5 and 1/4th N Fus but I cannot find info relating to anyone being transferred to the 25th Batt Tyneside Irish. 3. We are not sure if he freely signed-up or if he was conscripted, but either way would he have been given a Battalion and joined immediately or would he have returned home and awaited further instructions as the 1/5th N Fus was conducted at Walker, Northumberland. 4. I also know he is not listed in the Sheen book Tyneside Irish as he was not initially in the Tyneside Irish to start with, this I know from Mr Sheen himself. 5. Where would he have seen action with both Battalions. I await for anyone that can help me with any information to my queries, Kind regards Wend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Hello everyone I am a newbie and this is my first posting, so I hope I have the correct Forum. My great uncle Arthur Clayton born 1891 Staddlethorpe, Gilberdyke, Nr Hull, East Yorkshire and died 1 Sep 1917 Picardie, France. According to info on Ancestry for his death it states the following:Name: Arthur Clayton Birth Place: Gilberdyke, Yorks Death Date: 1 Sep 1917 Death Location: France & Flanders Enlistment Location: Hull Rank: Private Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers Battalion: 25th Battalion (Tyneside Irish) Number: 267192 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre Comments: Formerly 7728, 1/5Th Northumberland FusiliersMy queries are: 1. I cannot find his WW1 Service Records so how does Ancestry know he signed up at Hull, we don't have a date for his enlistment either. Also how would Ancestry know his former Battalion. 2. I have read the info for the 1/5 and 1/4th N Fus but I cannot find info relating to anyone being transferred to the 25th Batt Tyneside Irish. 3. We are not sure if he freely signed-up or if he was conscripted, but either way would he have been given a Battalion and joined immediately or would he have returned home and awaited further instructions as the 1/5th N Fus was conducted at Walker, Northumberland. 4. I also know he is not listed in the Sheen book Tyneside Irish as he was not initially in the Tyneside Irish to start with, this I know from Mr Sheen himself. 5. Where would he have seen action with both Battalions. I await for anyone that can help me with any information to my queries, Kind regards Wend Hi Wend, Welcome to the Forum. The information regarding his place of enlistment and previous unit will most probably have come from Soldiers Died in the Great War. It is possible that he was wounded with the 1/5th Bn and then sent to the 25th Bn as a replacement following his recovery. He would have served only in France and Flanders with either of these battalions. It is of course possible that he never served overseas with the 1/5th but was only sent to France in 1916 as a replacement for the massive casualties suffered by the 25th Bn on the Somme. Hope this helps? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Hi Wend, I have just checked his MIC and he can only have gone to France after 1/1/16. His long 6 figure number is the later Territorial number issued during 1917, so he probably went overseas after 1/1/17--although I am not certain about this. It will be worth checking the local newspaper around the time of his death, as this may well fill in some of the missing information which you seek. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Hi Robert Many thanks for some good pointers. I will have to visit my local library which has the local newspapers for this area, hopefully I may find more info. Arthur and his brother both died within 7 months of each other, Arthur has no grave, comemorated at Thiepval and Fred is buried. Their mother hoped the rest of her life that Arthur would be found and laid to rest in a "rightful manner" alas it will never be. Wend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 5. Where would he have seen action with both Battalions. Wend This would depend upon when he joined the respective unit. The 1/5th were part of the 50th Northumbrian Division. From the Long Long Trail http://www.1914-1918.net/50div.htm The Tyneside Irish were part of the 34th Division (apart from a period after the Somme when they were regenerated and served with the 34th Division) From the Long Long Trail http://www.1914-1918.net/34div.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 14 November , 2013 Share Posted 14 November , 2013 He was actually 4/7230 Pte Arthur Clayton, initially serving with the 1/4th Bn, N.F.. From here he was posted to the 1/6th Bn and renumbered 6/7728, and while with the Battalion he had three bouts of 'sickness' which caused hospitalization 18th November 1916; 5th December 1916 & 13th January 1917. On recovery he was renumbered once again as 267192 and shortly therafter posted to the 24th Bn, N.F. and from there to the 25th Bn, N.F. with whom he killed on the 1st September 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 14 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 14 November , 2013 Many thanks to ianjonescl and Graham Stewart. Graham how do you know this info and where have you found it please ??? Wend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 15 November , 2013 Share Posted 15 November , 2013 Many thanks to ianjonescl and Graham Stewart. Graham how do you know this info and where have you found it please ??? Wend Taken from numerous sources - this includes the N.F. Medal Rolls and War Diary of the 1/6th Bn, where his sickness is recorded. You have him listed as 1/5th Bn, but I'm afraid this is incorrect. The Nominal Roll in John's Book "Tyneside Irish" deals solely with the 'original' members of the T.I. as they enlisted and not later transfers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 15 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2013 Hello Graham Many thanks for that info and where you obtained it. Me and my cousin have been confused about his various Battalions for some time and different sites have different information about these too, this is why I had decided to ask on here to see what others could tell me. I do appreciate your time and help, at last this is now sorted and we at least know a little more about his time in the war. Kind regards Wend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 15 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2013 Hi Forgot to mention that later this morning I am visiting the local library to search through the newspapers to see if anything is written about Arthur and his brother Fred and their deaths. Wend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 15 November , 2013 Share Posted 15 November , 2013 Hi Forgot to mention that later this morning I am visiting the local library to search through the newspapers to see if anything is written about Arthur and his brother Fred and their deaths. Wend Local newspapers are always a good and often overlooked source, especially when it comes to obituaries, as many do have photo's. By 1917 though it seems the general public were tiring of the War and there doesn't seem to be the more personal columns that there had been earlier on. If you do come across photo's of either I for one would appreciate it, if you could apply them to this post, as it's always nice to see exactly who it is we're discussing. Regards Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 15 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2013 Well after 3 hours of searching through the newspapers I found nothing about Arthur or Fred. I think they may have been reported in the Hull Daily Mail so I will have to make arrangements to visit Hull History Centre. Photographs, we have one of one of them, in army uniform and one of Fred's grave, but I will have to ask my cousin to resend them as my comp got a virus some time ago and I lost a lot of files. Arthur is commemorated at Thiepval Memorial - Plot: Pier and Face 10 B 11 B and 12 B I can post a photograph of Thiepval Memorial. Wend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 15 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2013 Arthur Clayton - Thiepval Memorial - Plot: Pier and Face 10 B 11 B and 12 B - 1 September 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 15 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2013 Reference Map of Thiepval Memorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 15 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2013 ARTHUR CLAYTON - inscriptionArthur Clayton Inscription Thiepval Memorial (3).tif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 17 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2013 Arthur Clayton - taken at school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 18 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2013 Arthur Clayton - Notification to his Mother Arthur Clayton - Roll of Honour Arthur & Fred Clayton - Memoriam Arthur's brother Fred Clayton - Killed in Action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 18 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2013 The newspaper reports above were all found in the Hull Daily Mail, East Yorkshire. Wend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 11 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 11 September , 2014 I notice from the newspaper detailing Arthur's death, 1st Sep 1917, it states he had only just returned to France a few weeks ago after being in hospital in England, so he had again been hospitalised, unless he had been in hospital since January 1917 ?? would "sickness" have caused such a lengthy stay in hospital?? In a letter home from his brother Fred, he says that Art (as he was known) should be discharged, "he owt to be and should be", by the way the letter is wrote it seems that Fred, also in France, knew about what was happening to Arthur and hoped that Arthur would be successful, so this makes me wonder if Arthur had applied for medical discharge and we are now beginning to wonder if Arthur had some medical recurring problem that caused these "hospitalisations" if this was the case then why wasn't he discharged as medically unfit. I don't ever recall my Nanna saying that her brother was an unwell man nor that either had been in hospital, although she spoke of her brothers most often and ensured we all knew that they gave the ultimate sacrifice. As we are now remembering WW1 more indepth, some 25 miles away in Hull a local history centre have asked if I would approve of them using my research material for Arthur & Fred for inclusion in an exhibition, as a family we are very proud and honoured that we have been asked and we can provide good factual evidence for them both including their Dead Man's Penny's, photographs, war service record for Fred, their letters home and other information, but without the help of sites like this I wouldn't have had the pieces of information like Arthur's "sickness" hospitalisations etc., so on behalf of my cousins and my family I thank you, we will do justice to them both in this exhibition and if I am allowed I will get some photographs and post on here as I will other sites that have helped me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain barker Posted 3 November , 2019 Share Posted 3 November , 2019 Hello there, I was just reading this piece and would love a copy of the letters the Clayton's sent. I am related through there mother Elizabeth Clayton. Many thanks Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 3 November , 2019 Share Posted 3 November , 2019 Wend has not been on the forum for 5 years. Maybe try a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wend Posted 20 April , 2020 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2020 Hi everyone, I have replied by PM to captain barker, awaiting his reply, thanks Wendy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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