depaor01 Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Hi all, I had the honour of being able to look through and record some personal items belonging two Capuchin friars who served in the Great War, Fr. John Butler and Fr. Ignatius Collins M.C. I'm hoping members might be able to ID these bullets which are part of their effects: This round seems to have richocheted looking at the diagonal grooves - although I don't see any rifling marks. Any ideas of the weapon that fired it? Is this a Lee Metford bullet? Thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Dave, Top one looks like a fired German Mauser 7.92 bullet. The grooves are from the rifling inside the barrel. The second looks like it could be a Turkish 9.5mm round for the 1887 rifle although I think the Germans used the same calibre in their 1871 rifle which was obsolete but still in use during the war I believe. If the headstamp has a crescent moon or arabic script on it then it's likely to be Turkish. Tony E will no doubt be along shortly to clarify beyond doubt! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Dave, Top one looks like a fired German Mauser 7.92 bullet. The grooves are from the rifling inside the barrel. ... Tony E will no doubt be along shortly to clarify beyond doubt! Simon The top one does look like a 7,92 - the lighter 153 grain S-patrone perhaps - and the parallel-sided groove towards the base is probably a rifling mark, showing the rather steep 24cm twist. I wonder if the second is Austrian 11.15x58R? Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 13 November , 2013 Share Posted 13 November , 2013 I agree that the top one is a normal German S geschoss, probably from later in the war as it appears to have a cannelure. The second is much more likely to be an 11x60R Mauser for the 71/84 rifle which was in quite wide use with the German reservists.If the headstamp is posted then we can tell for certain. Simon - the 9.5mm Turkish round looked far more slender than that posted, plus it was not used by the Germans in the 1871 rifle. That was the 11x60R that I mention above. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 13 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2013 Thanks for the expertise all, I checked the base and there are no marks at all which I thought strange... I'll take Tony's view on it being Mauser in the absence of a headstamp. Cheers, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 14 November , 2013 Share Posted 14 November , 2013 Interesting to speculate about the range at which the 7,92 bullet struck whatever made the collision-marks on it, which show a steeper twist than the rifling. The angular velocity of rotation would decay much more slowly than the forward velocity, because it has very little air to displace - therefore the rpm at impact would be little different from at the muzzle, even though the striking velocity would be less. At a guess, it looks as if it struck at about 2/3 muzzle velocity. Interpolating ballistic tables with an estimated MV of 2700 fps and a ballistic coefficient of about .37, this looks like about 400 yards . Quite a nice example to illustrate the preservation of rotational versus flight velocity. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 14 November , 2013 Share Posted 14 November , 2013 More speculation on that cartridge. The Mauser, Werndle and Gras cartridges are very similar in appearance, and , whilst I agree with Tony's initial thought that it is a Mauser, some measurements would be nice to confirm it. Some Comblain cartridges are known to have been produced in Belgium without headstamps but the neck length of the cartridge case in the photo seems to rule that series out. OP , if you have the facility, could you please measure the case length and rim diameter with a micrometer or vernier caliper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 14 November , 2013 Share Posted 14 November , 2013 As you say, the Mauser, Werndle and Gras cartridges are very similar in appearance and all have a Mauser "A" base. However, the Mauser has a marginally longer neck which this round appears to have as well as being the most likely of the three to be brought home as a souvenir. The lack of a headstamp is unusual but not unknowm. The Comblain is a much shorter stubbier case. We await dimensions! Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 17 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2013 Thanks for the forensics! I'll see if I can get some measurements and get back on this one. Cheers, DP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now