Northumberland Fusiliers (Group Photos)

[timsanders]

I came across this fine collection of photos recently added by Arnie Brunton:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arnie/

It appears to show pre-war group photos of each company and section of Northumberland Fusiliers. I recognise the names of a few of the officers from the war diary (Sandilands, Yatman, Herbert etc.)

Can anyone confirm the date these were likely to have been taken and how, if it all, the pre war companies (A-F) relate to the 4 companies (W-Z) of 1914?

Best

Tim

[Graham Stewart]

Photo's were taken at Rawalpindi 1911 and I actually have an actual album of the event in my collection. It's interesting how he entitles the officers as '1/5th Bn, N.F.', which was a WWI pre-fix for T.F. units. At that time the two regular battalions still used their old 'Foot' title i.e. '5th Fusiliers', quite often omitting the rest of the title altogether and so it should have been written as '1/5th Fusiliers'.

[Graham Stewart]

Christmas that year the Battalion produced a Xmas card, which included a photo of the old Colours, as seen in the album.

[Graham Stewart]

Each of the plates within the album are actually in sepia tone and having looked at Mr. Bruntons wonder if they are copies of the original album?

[ianjonesncl]

Photo's were taken at Rawalpindi 1911 and I actually have an actual album of the event in my collection. It's interesting how he entitles the officers as '1/5th Bn, N.F.', which was a WWI pre-fix for T.F. units. At that time the two regular battalions still used their old 'Foot' title i.e. '5th Fusiliers', quite often omitting the rest of the title altogether and so it should have been written as '1/5th Fusiliers'.

Must admit I could not understand why the 5th NF were wearing tropical dress in Walker.

[Old Owl]

Photo's were taken at Rawalpindi 1911 and I actually have an actual album of the event in my collection. It's interesting how he entitles the officers as '1/5th Bn, N.F.', which was a WWI pre-fix for T.F. units. At that time the two regular battalions still used their old 'Foot' title i.e. '5th Fusiliers', quite often omitting the rest of the title altogether and so it should have been written as '1/5th Fusiliers'.

Hi Graham,

I have tried to download the group of officers from the album, but find that this function is disabled. I wonder if it would be possible for you to make a hi-res copy from your album? I have a particular interest in Lieut Sloper and would be most grateful if you could assist me.

If this is possible, I could PM you my email address.

Many thanks.

Regards, Robert

[timsanders]

Hi Robert

I extracted hi res images from the flickr page, pm your email address and I'll send over.

Best

Tim

[Old Owl]

Hi Robert

I extracted hi res images from the flickr page, pm your email address and I'll send over.

Best

Tim

Many thanks Tim. PM sent

Robert

[timsanders]

Photo's were taken at Rawalpindi 1911 and I actually have an actual album of the event in my collection. It's interesting how he entitles the officers as '1/5th Bn, N.F.', which was a WWI pre-fix for T.F. units. At that time the two regular battalions still used their old 'Foot' title i.e. '5th Fusiliers', quite often omitting the rest of the title altogether and so it should have been written as '1/5th Fusiliers'.

Thanks for clarifying Graham.

I wonder if my GGF who enlisted 1904 (7 years) is in these photo's... had the 1st Bn been in India for some time in 1911?

Also, I noted some of the officers of H Coy were wounded/killed on 13th/14th October (Herbert/Miller) the same action as my GGF was wounded, would this point to them serving in the same company in 1914 or this a red herring?

[Graham Stewart]

Thanks for clarifying Graham.

I wonder if my GGF who enlisted 1904 (7 years) is in these photo's... had the 1st Bn been in India for some time in 1911?

Also, I noted some of the officers of H Coy were wounded/killed on 13th/14th October (Herbert/Miller) the same action as my GGF was wounded, would this point to them serving in the same company in 1914 or this a red herring?

By the time they were mobilised for active service, they would have operated the new four company system('A', 'B', 'C' & 'D' Coys), and to be honest I don't know which of these four senior Companies absorbed the four junior Companies. Logically it should be 'A' absorbs 'E', 'B' absorbs 'F', 'C' absorbs 'G' and 'D' absorbs 'H', which in reality has your GGF serving with 'D' Coy, until the 4th September 1914, when 'A', 'B', 'C' & 'D' Coy's were re-lettered 'W', 'X', 'Y' & 'Z' Coys.

Possibly one of the easiest way's to determine this would be a look at the Battalion War Diary to see which Companies the former 'H' Coy officers were serving in October 1914 - also any chance of the name of your GGF?

[timsanders]

Cheers Graham - yes I'll have a closer look at the diary for clues, unfortunately following Captain Herbert's wounding, the casualty list for October 1914 wasn't listed in company's.

The name is Pte Abner Edwin Sanders (457) - you kindly helped with a query a few years back. Since then I've been studying 3rd Division / 9th Brigade actions of 1914 and collecting various records & research I can find, but alas, I'm no nearer to finding his photo.

[Graham Stewart]

Cheers Graham - yes I'll have a closer look at the diary for clues, unfortunately following Captain Herbert's wounding, the casualty list for October 1914 wasn't listed in company's.

The name is Pte Abner Edwin Sanders (457) - you kindly helped with a query a few years back. Since then I've been studying 3rd Division / 9th Brigade actions of 1914 and collecting various records & research I can find, but alas, I'm no nearer to finding his photo.

Don't know if I passed this on, but he enlisted at the end of February 1904, either the 23rd or 24th of the month.

[timsanders]

I have this yes, thank you.

Just revisited the diary:

12 October 1914 - B Company marched at 6:00 am about 10 miles to Vielle Chapelle. On the way at Le Cornet Malo B Company was divided into two columns. B Company of R. Fusil. forming one column under Lt. Col McMahon R. Fusil. This column supported 8th Batt which was in action at Ville Chapelle. At dusk B Company was withdrawn to billets at Paradis.

13 October 1914 - B Company attached to 8th. Brigade marched at 5:00am halted at Zelobes and came into action in the early afternoon on the extreme left of the line which was attacking in Bout de Ville. Not much progress was made and B Company billeted for the night on the line of Rue de Ponch.

14 October 1914 - Attack continued in later afternoon. Bout Delville was finally occupied, the French Cavalry co-operating on the left.

Captain Sandilands recalls "The Fifth, with the Gordons on their right and the Royal Fusiliers on their left, reached and fought their way through the village of Pont du Hem; but the Germans still clung desperately to Croix Barbee. Having carried Pont du Hem, the Fifth, among whom Captain Raymond Mitchell St. John Booth and his company (B Company?) figured prominently this day, swept east of the village and, together with the Royal Fusiliers, drove back all opposition and simultaneously with the French cavalry further to the north, gained the line of the Neuve Chapelle-Estaires road about 4.30 pm. Then at last the enemy, finding his northern flank turned, abandoned his position at Croix Barbee, though he continued till darkness to offer a stubborn resistance to the right of the 8th Brigade attack. Not till 11 pm was the 8th Brigade in occupation of the line of the Estaires road along its whole front."

Is it safe to assume then that B Company* was the only section of NF in action on these days as the rest of 9th Brigade was in reserve until 17th October?

*or X Company

[Muerrisch]

Thanks for clarifying Graham.

I wonder if my GGF who enlisted 1904 (7 years) is in these photo's... had the 1st Bn been in India for some time in 1911?

Also, I noted some of the officers of H Coy were wounded/killed on 13th/14th October (Herbert/Miller) the same action as my GGF was wounded, would this point to them serving in the same company in 1914 or this a red herring?

Are you sure it was seven years? In 1904? For line infantry?

7 with colours and 5 reserve obtained until July 1902 when it became 3 and 9, then November 1904 9 and 3, and finally 7 and 5 again in 1906.

[Muerrisch]

By the time they were mobilised for active service, they would have operated the new four company system('A', 'B', 'C' & 'D' Coys), and to be honest I don't know which of these four senior Companies absorbed the four junior Companies. Logically it should be 'A' absorbs 'E', 'B' absorbs 'F', 'C' absorbs 'G' and 'D' absorbs 'H', which in reality has your GGF serving with 'D' Coy, until the 4th September 1914, when 'A', 'B', 'C' & 'D' Coy's were re-lettered 'W', 'X', 'Y' & 'Z' Coys.

Possibly one of the easiest way's to determine this would be a look at the Battalion War Diary to see which Companies the former 'H' Coy officers were serving in October 1914 - also any chance of the name of your GGF?

Graham, I wonder if the "junior" company was in fact H, harking back to the days of the flank companies being top dog? H would presumably be left flank company in line? A position of responsibility?

[Old Owl]

I have this yes, thank you.

Just revisited the diary:

12 October 1914 - B Company marched at 6:00 am about 10 miles to Vielle Chapelle. On the way at Le Cornet Malo B Company was divided into two columns. B Company of R. Fusil. forming one column under Lt. Col McMahon R. Fusil. This column supported 8th Batt which was in action at Ville Chapelle. At dusk B Company was withdrawn to billets at Paradis.

13 October 1914 - B Company attached to 8th. Brigade marched at 5:00am halted at Zelobes and came into action in the early afternoon on the extreme left of the line which was attacking in Bout de Ville. Not much progress was made and B Company billeted for the night on the line of Rue de Ponch.

14 October 1914 - Attack continued in later afternoon. Bout Delville was finally occupied, the French Cavalry co-operating on the left.

Captain Sandilands recalls "The Fifth, with the Gordons on their right and the Royal Fusiliers on their left, reached and fought their way through the village of Pont du Hem; but the Germans still clung desperately to Croix Barbee. Having carried Pont du Hem, the Fifth, among whom Captain Raymond Mitchell St. John Booth and his company (B Company?) figured prominently this day, swept east of the village and, together with the Royal Fusiliers, drove back all opposition and simultaneously with the French cavalry further to the north, gained the line of the Neuve Chapelle-Estaires road about 4.30 pm. Then at last the enemy, finding his northern flank turned, abandoned his position at Croix Barbee, though he continued till darkness to offer a stubborn resistance to the right of the 8th Brigade attack. Not till 11 pm was the 8th Brigade in occupation of the line of the Estaires road along its whole front."

Is it safe to assume then that B Company* was the only section of NF in action on these days as the rest of 9th Brigade was in reserve until 17th October?

*or X Company

Captain R.M St.J.Booth was awarded the DSO for his actions on this day--I believe that this was the first DSO awarded to the Northumberland Fusilers during WW1. He had previously served during the Boer War with the Yorkshire Regt., for which he was awarded the QSA with five clasps.

His elder brother, Major Arthur William Calvert Booth, Northumberland Fusiliers attached Mounted Infantry, was killed in action whilst covering the retreat from Sanna's Post, on 31st March,1900.

[Old Owl]

Hi Robert

I extracted hi res images from the flickr page, pm your email address and I'll send over.

Best

Tim

Many thanks Tim, copies received in good order.

Robert

[Ancre1917]

Hi Graham

Some time ago you helped with tracing the service record of my great uncle 1990 private Daniel Rhead, who was reported missing 26 October 1914. When my grand father died in 1971 he had a photo of a soldier in the 5th Foot whom I now realize was his brother, Daniel. He had kept it with his own medals since he received it when they were both out in India in c. 1907. ( Grandad was with 2nd North Staffs.) To my shame, I have lost the photo. I would love for Daniel to be somewhere in this collection. However, I know from the census that in 1911 he was back in the UK in Pontefract barracks. Do you know when the photos in the album were actually taken? If it was in 1910, or even early 1911, and allowing for time to have them published, he might be somewhere in the company photos. As he was killed on 26 October, I assuming he was in Z company, but this is only supposition. So, what I'm asking is could you pm me with photo copies of all the companies. Or, if you think it best, I could pm you my email address. If I can find his picture I won't have to worry about meeting my grandad some time in the future!!

Richard

[timsanders]

Are you sure it was seven years? In 1904? For line infantry?

7 with colours and 5 reserve obtained until July 1902 when it became 3 and 9, then November 1904 9 and 3, and finally 7 and 5 again in 1906.

I've never heard this before, goes to show I have much to learn!

So he would have de-mobbed Feb 1907 and recalled 7 years later to embark with the 1st Bn - staggering to comprehend knowing what followed.

[Graham Stewart]

I've never heard this before, goes to show I have much to learn!

So he would have de-mobbed Feb 1907 and recalled 7 years later to embark with the 1st Bn - staggering to comprehend knowing what followed.

Unless he decided to sign on - which many did.

[Muerrisch]

The Terms of Engagement were as stated but the army allowed all sorts of exceptions, such as signing for a straight 12 with the colours and no reserve liability, and also "signing for more" during colour service, and also specific extensions of service offered from time to time.

So a soldier, once "in" on whichever initial terms were current becomes a difficult prey to follow thereafter!

[timsanders]

The Terms of Engagement were as stated but the army allowed all sorts of exceptions, such as signing for a straight 12 with the colours and no reserve liability, and also "signing for more" during colour service, and also specific extensions of service offered from time to time.

So a soldier, once "in" on whichever initial terms were current becomes a difficult prey to follow thereafter!

Without a service record I guess I'll never know. According to his marriage certificate (March 1910) he's a Cotton Mill worker in Derbyshire (Where he grew up and enlisted) so he would have been out of active service for at least 4/5 years.

[seaforth78]

Tim,

Thanks for spotting this.

May I prevail on Graham, within reason, if he may send me three images of Captain Festing's Coy, the Regimental Band and of the Regimental staff please? I tried as Robert above but alas! (I have a special interest in the Festing family)

As a sword collector, with several swords to the NF, I noted with delight the grenade badge of the 5th cheerfully on the guards of their swords underneath the Royal Cypher. This was a very distinctive Regimental distinction for the 5th in the Army.

Thank you Tim and Graham in advance!