Reginald Senior - RHA Reg 684 / 608229

[raysen]

Hi Guys,

I hope someone out there is able to help me a little bit.

My grandad Reginald Senior was a Driver in the RHA. I have is medal index card in which it lists his two regiments 684 and 608229 and also the two medals he received (Victory and British).

I have a bad feeling that his service records where of those destroyed in WW2 as I can't find anything for him other than his Medal Index Card on Ancestry.co.uk, but there are a couple of things I hope someone could shed some light on.

Firstly, Would the two regiment numbers mean he was started with one regiment and then was moved part way through? What could a reason for this be?

Secondly, with no service records is there no other way to find out more about him personally as a solider? When he enlisted/left - What about when he was with each regiment?

Any advice would be much appreciated

Thanks Guys

Rachael

[BillyH]

Have a look at the Long Long Trail for some background information :

http://www.1914-1918.net/cra.htm

Only one Regiment though, not two! The Royal Horse Artillery.

An expert on artillery numbering will probably come along shortly and offer help, but the 3 figure number could well be indicating that he was a pre-war regular?

As you say, his service records don't seem to have survived (no surprise there) but his medal card indicates that he didn't go overseas before 1.1.1916 (no 1914/15 Star) so this makes my theory about him being a pre-war regular less likely.

Post a bit more detail, date of birth, where he lived, anything you have. It might help a bit.

BillyH.

[jay dubaya]

Welcome to the forum Rachael,

Reginald was a member of the West Riding Battery RHA based at Wentworth Woodhouse, Rotherham. The WR RHA were a Terrtorial Force unit and from November 1916 the whole of the TF underwent a numbering change where the original numbers were replaced with six dgit numbers, certain number blocks being allocated to certain units and in the case of the WR RHA this was the number block 608001 - 610000.

The 1/1st Bty WR RHA (there were no second line batteries wih the WR RHA) served in the Middle East (Egypt) as part of the 52nd (Lowland) Division, 263rd Brigade Royal Field Artillery (a composite brigade made up from other RHA batteries) from March 1916 -1918. I suspect that Reginald was a pre-war soldier with the WR RHA and at the time of renumbering this composite brigade was known as the 5th Lowland Brigade Royal Field Artillery

Jon

[raysen]

Have a look at the Long Long Trail for some background information :

http://www.1914-1918.net/cra.htm

Only one Regiment though, not two! The Royal Horse Artillery.

An expert on artillery numbering will probably come along shortly and offer help, but the 3 figure number could well be indicating that he was a pre-war regular?

As you say, his service records don't seem to have survived (no surprise there) but his medal card indicates that he didn't go overseas before 1.1.1916 (no 1914/15 Star) so this makes my theory about him being a pre-war regular less likely.

Post a bit more detail, date of birth, where he lived, anything you have. It might help a bit.

BillyH.

Welcome to the forum Rachael,

Reginald was a member of the West Riding Battery RHA based at Wentworth Woodhouse, Rotherham. The WR RHA were a Terrtorial Force unit and from November 1916 the whole of the TF underwent a numbering change where the original numbers were replaced with six dgit numbers, certain number blocks being allocated to certain units and in the case of the WR RHA this was the number block 608001 - 610000.

The 1/1st Bty WR RHA (there were no second line batteries wih the WR RHA) served in the Middle East (Egypt) as part of the 52nd (Lowland) Division, 263rd Brigade Royal Field Artillery (a composite brigade made up from other RHA batteries) from March 1916 -1918. I suspect that Reginald was a pre-war soldier with the WR RHA and at the time of renumbering this composite brigade was known as the 5th Lowland Brigade Royal Field Artillery

Jon

Thanks for the information guys,

He was born in 1896 West Riding, Yorkshire and died in 1965. So would have been 18 in 1914. Not sure if this helps much?

The two regiment numbers was really confusing me, makes a bit more sense now.

So the 3 digit reg number indicates he signed up pre war? What sort of year would this have been?

Jon are you able to expand a little on what Billy said about not going over seas before 1st Jan 1916 if he was a pre war soldier?

Thanks again guys

[BillyH]

Rachael,

Very occasionally they can have 2 medal cards, one of them with the 1914 Star on it, but I can't find another one for him on Ancestry. (Someone else might though?)

Did you get yours via National Archives or Ancestry?

There is one for him on NA, and sometimes it is a different one. Costs £3.36 though, and it looks as though it is the same as Ancestry.

BillyH.

[David Porter]

Rachael,

I can tell you that his enlistment date was between April 20 - 26, 1915. Contrary to what Jon said, there was a 2nd line battery and indeed a 3rd Line reserve battery.

As mentioned, 1/1st West Riding Battery was designated C battery in 263rd (5th Lowland) Brigade, 52nd (Lowland) Division. The brigade sailed for Port Said from Devonport in mid February 1916 and was briefly renumbered 264th (between September and December 1916). On reversion to 263rd Brigade, C battery was divided between A and B batteries to bring them up to 6 guns. In July 1917, these two batteries reverted to 1/1st Leicester RHA and 1/1st Hampshire RHA and were joined by 1/1st Berkshire RHA on formation of 20th Brigade RHA in Yeomanry Mounted Division. They served entirely in Egypt and Palestine.

2/1st West Riding Battery was initially intended as a duplicate Home Service battery and was formed in late 1914 once the 1st line had accepted the overseas obligation. They moved to Larkhill in December 1915. When the Military Service Act came into force they were all eligible for overseas service. In the early summer of 1916 they again moved to Heytesbury and were for a while designated C battery in 318th Brigade, 63rd (Northumbrian) Division. This Divisional Artillery went overseas in early July 1916 and joined Royal Naval Division which itself became a new 63rd Division. The brigade was renumbered 225th then shortly afterwards 223rd which it remained. Despite a lot of additions along the way C/223 contained many West Riding men. They served entirely in France and Flanders.

3/1st West Riding Battery was initially just a handful of men a depot level. By May 1916 they were at Rollestone and specifically supplied replacements for 1st and 2nd line batteries. When the 2nd line went overseas they became part of 8th Reserve Brigade RHA and moved to Bulford. Men posted here could have served in either theatre or remained at home.

Nobody who remained in these batteries since the beginning of the war was entitled to a Star medal. To have gone overseas and been entitled to the Victory and British medals (and to get renumbered as West Riding RHA) Reginald must have been in either 1/1st or 2/1st batteries. The theatre of war, if you know it, is the clincher.

[jay dubaya]

Thanks for that clarification David, I'm happy to be corrected and have made note of the above

Jon

[raysen]

Rachael,

Very occasionally they can have 2 medal cards, one of them with the 1914 Star on it, but I can't find another one for him on Ancestry. (Someone else might though?)

Did you get yours via National Archives or Ancestry?

There is one for him on NA, and sometimes it is a different one. Costs £3.36 though, and it looks as though it is the same as Ancestry.

BillyH.

Hi Billy, I have access to the medal card via ancestry but I did purchase one from national archives, which turned out to be the same. - Pot luck really

Rachael,

I can tell you that his enlistment date was between April 20 - 26, 1915. Contrary to what Jon said, there was a 2nd line battery and indeed a 3rd Line reserve battery.

As mentioned, 1/1st West Riding Battery was designated C battery in 263rd (5th Lowland) Brigade, 52nd (Lowland) Division. The brigade sailed for Port Said from Devonport in mid February 1916 and was briefly renumbered 264th (between September and December 1916). On reversion to 263rd Brigade, C battery was divided between A and B batteries to bring them up to 6 guns. In July 1917, these two batteries reverted to 1/1st Leicester RHA and 1/1st Hampshire RHA and were joined by 1/1st Berkshire RHA on formation of 20th Brigade RHA in Yeomanry Mounted Division. They served entirely in Egypt and Palestine.

2/1st West Riding Battery was initially intended as a duplicate Home Service battery and was formed in late 1914 once the 1st line had accepted the overseas obligation. They moved to Larkhill in December 1915. When the Military Service Act came into force they were all eligible for overseas service. In the early summer of 1916 they again moved to Heytesbury and were for a while designated C battery in 318th Brigade, 63rd (Northumbrian) Division. This Divisional Artillery went overseas in early July 1916 and joined Royal Naval Division which itself became a new 63rd Division. The brigade was renumbered 225th then shortly afterwards 223rd which it remained. Despite a lot of additions along the way C/223 contained many West Riding men. They served entirely in France and Flanders.

3/1st West Riding Battery was initially just a handful of men a depot level. By May 1916 they were at Rollestone and specifically supplied replacements for 1st and 2nd line batteries. When the 2nd line went overseas they became part of 8th Reserve Brigade RHA and moved to Bulford. Men posted here could have served in either theatre or remained at home.

Nobody who remained in these batteries since the beginning of the war was entitled to a Star medal. To have gone overseas and been entitled to the Victory and British medals (and to get renumbered as West Riding RHA) Reginald must have been in either 1/1st or 2/1st batteries. The theatre of war, if you know it, is the clincher.

Hi David,

That's all brillinant. Thank you so much. I guess with no service records, there is no real way of knowing for sure if he was in the 1/1st or 2/1st batteries? That's quite exciting to find out about the dates that he likely enlisted. It's nice to have some information on where he probably served. Just feel it's such a shame I can't find any more details about him personally. But the information you have given is extremely helpful and useful, so thanks a lot for that

[raysen]

Hi,

Please excuse my ignorance but I found this website http://www.hut-six.co.uk/GreatWar/units.html in which it has transcribed units from WW1 Campaign medals. It has number 684 as 1/2nd Brigade Royal Field Artillery - Am I right in thinking the number is the regiment number? If so, does the unit details shed any more light as to which battery he may have been in?

Thanks

Rachael

[David Porter]

Rachael,

You are reading too much into that information. It is just a numbered list of all the units that appear on Medal Index Cards as transcribed by the National Archives. Number 684 just happens to be 1/2nd Brigade Royal Field Artillery - which is actually meaningless without the Territorial district known. Quite rightly there are only 3 instances of this on all medal cards. They are all possible units or corps but some clearly don't exist. For ease they have been placed, more or less, in alphanumeric order.

[Sheffieldguy]

Hi David,

I was very pleased to see that you confirmed the existence of the 2/1st West Riding RHA as I know my grandfather Arthur Hoyland # 673 (MIC attached) was in the RHA, trained at Wentworth Woodhouse (see attached photo probably taken 1st Aug 1914) and he served in France and was wounded by shrapnel on the Somme. All the sources that I previously found on line say there was no 2nd battery and in fact if you visit the church at Wentworth you will see a plaque dedicated to the members of the 1st who died in Egypt/Palestine (photo attached) along with the colours but no mention of the 2nd battery. A local historian in Wentworth had told me there was a 2nd in France & I did find a record for Driver G.H. Carr from Wickersley (buried Wickersley) of the 2/1st WRRHA service # 779 who died 15/09/1915 this being my only confirmation that the 2nd battery existed. Can you please tell me where you found your information and perhaps more interestingly do you know where they served and in which battles they participated?

From Arthurs MIC can you tell me more? Apparently he was in the R.E. (Royal Engineers??) before and after the RHA and I assume that the T prefix on the first reference denotes Territorial?

Does anyone (Rachael) have any photos of the WRRRA to share?

Regards,

Ian

[David Porter]

Ian,

Welcome to the Forum.

Thank you for posting a picture of the plaque, first time I've seen this, and for pointing out the unfortunate Driver Carr.

The number 673 would put Arthur Hoyland joining West Riding RHA on or just after April 6, 1915. It looks like before the end of 1916 he had transferred to the Royal Engineers. 476902 places him in 1st West Riding Field Company - see http://www.1914-1918.net/TF_renumbering_re.htm. The date of his transfer needs to be determined as he may not have been wounded whilst with 2/1st West Riding RHA who left for France in early July 1916. He could have joined 2/1st West Riding Field Company in 62nd Division, moving to 49th Division on June 23, 1916 where it became 458th Field Company.

My information has been gathered over several years looking at surviving service records and other documents.

[Sheffieldguy]

David,

Since your last reply I have been looking all over the internet trying to follow up anf found a lot of interesting info but cant find the confirmation that associates No 673 with the 6th April date, can you forward it to me? Also do you have dates for the allocation of his 6 figure No.? Again I cant find anything.

I have Arthurs souveniers a pair of French Nickel spurs and the horses bit from the Major who was leading their battery. Arthur told me the Major was killed by an incoming artillery round and that he was the 3rd Makor killed while leading them. Unfortunatly after 40+ years I can not remember the Majors name.

My dad told me that granddad joined up in 1914 at age 16 and served through to the end of the war. He also told me that he returned to England with the same horse (who’s name I have also forgotten!) and that during embarkation or disembarkation someone hamstrung the horse and it had to be put down. Dad attributed this to another soldier having “personal issues” with granddad. Based on this returning with the same horse story I had always assumed that he came home with his Horse Artillery unit. Perhaps he transferred to the Royal Engineers after they returned to England?

Regards,

Ian

[David Porter]

Ian,

The evidence was the service file of James Thomas Simmonds 672 who enlisted in 2/1st West Riding RHA on April 6, 1915 plus that James Bracegirdle 680 enlisting on April 20, 1915. The Royal Engineers TF were renumbered with six figures on December 1, 1916 and Arthur has both pre (3347) and post (476902) numbers. This makes it pretty certain he was in the Royal Engineers by December 1, 1916. It is all in the link I gave in post #12.