A very interesting report.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I have found a report in a brigade war diary (as one does). It is more than averagely interesting and in fact it may be regarded as "significant", on two counts. However I'm finding it difficult to believe that the content of this report hasn't been publicised before, - but I've searched the GWF and other web sources for what I believe to be the two soldiers concerned and I cant find reference to them.

Before I post the diary report has anybody got an opinion on the following ? The first man is referred to as Private Trigg. He was in "D" Company, 2nd Battalion the Border Regiment. A Regular soldier who had served with the Bn for the whole war. He had gone sick in December 1915 and returned to the Bn in May 1916. I think that this is his medal card >

(It may be very significant that the card shows him to have been a Pow, which I expect to have been during June 1916).

The second man is not named, however he was recorded as having been killed the day after the 2nd Bn Border Regiment returned to the trenches in February 1916 after a two month break. See this topic. I believe that this is the man >

He is named on the Thiepval Memorial. The other two men mentioned in the previous thread are both buried in Norfolk Cemetery, which may be significant, as might the fact that Burley's medal records show him as "died" rather than kia or dow.

Anybody got any thoughts on this, or ever heard of Trigg or Burley before ?

Tom

[seaforths]

Burley - died from other causes such as an accident, disease, illness not attributable to wounds he might have received or, self inflicted?

Only suggestions as I recently decided to follow up something that had been bugging me for some time. A man listed as died - accidental in Bn. Diaries was listed as died - self inflicted in Bde. Diaries. I did find a service record for him at TNA however, the documents pertaining to the enquiry had been 'weeded and destroyed'. The only thing that remained to indicate the outcome was a typed up piece of paper that said 'Death Certificate' and that his death was self inflicted.

I'm willing to check The Scotsman for you tomorrow night if that might help?

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Burley - died from other causes such as an accident, disease, illness not attributable to wounds he might have received or, self inflicted?

I believe that Burley was, in a slightly broad sense, killed in action. The nature of his death (assuming I have the right man) could be pretty significant to our knowledge of an aspect of the way the British Army operated during WW1. The case of Trigg (again, assuming I have the right man) is extremely similar to that of Burley, excepting that Trigg survived the war, and in a way his case could have had an additional significance.

Given the limited information available I am concerned at the possibility of misidentifying the two men, - can anybody see any alternatives to the men I have named ?

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I'll post this as large as I can to make it readable. O/C 20th Infantry Brigade to 7th Division. Don't think there can be any doubt about the authenticity. Trigg would know nothing because he was only the Company Commander's batman (!), and Burley, assuming it was him, well how often might this have happened ?

Tom

[Guest]

I'm sure others with more knowledge than I will will come in on this Tom, but very interesting. I wonder if the authorities caught up with Trigg when released?

Mike

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I'm sure others with more knowledge than I will will come in on this Tom, but very interesting. I wonder if the authorities caught up with Trigg when released?

Mike

Mike - both Trigg and Burley's service medal cards and rolls show no sign of there having been any glitch with the routine issue of their medals - though Burley's records show the BW&V Medals being returned to the WO as undeliverable.

The broader issues - the "fact" that there appear to have been standing orders to shoot (to kill) British soldiers who appeared to be "going over" to the enemy, and the fact that Trigg (assuming my ID is correct) deserted to Fritz on the Somme, just a couple of weeks before 1/7/16, seem to have quietly slipped into the GWF archive

Tom

[Guest]

" quietly slipped into the GWF archive "

So it would seem. Great find. Can't see a sign of a service record for either?

Mike

[IPT]

I think the medal card above belongs to Frederick James Horace Percival Trigg (1887-1975). He was in the 2nd Border Regiment on the 1911 census.

[rolt968]

Interesting; Frederick James Horace Percival Trigg was married. He had married in Luton in 1909.

Norris Burley seems to have been born in Oldham in the second quarter of 1897, which makes him 17 in November 1914.

Roger.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... Frederick James Horace Percival Trigg was married. He had married in Luton in 1909. ...

With regards to the reference to his wife in the Divisional report, I did wonder if his having deserted (because that is what he did) might have had anything to do with him wanting the wife to lose the separation allowance. Does anybody know if that is what would have happened ?

Tom

[SiegeGunner]

Fascinating find, Tom. I don't suppose you've also got the 'all available evidence in writing' collected by the OC 2nd Border Regt? If his MIC records him as PoW and his medals were not forfeited, there may perhaps be more to the story. In particular, would a man wilfully intending to desert to the enemy take his rifle with him, thereby running an extremely high risk that the Germans would shoot him down, either in NML or when he jumped into their front-line trench, rifle in hand. From the description, he was evidently an experienced soldier of good repute, but in unfamiliar terrain and with a big weight on his mind. It seems highly improbable, but, as he was apparently not listed as a deserter, not impossible, that he became disorientated and, while the sector was presumably quiet, went completely the wrong way and ultimately jumped into the enemy front trench only because a number of bemused Germans were pointing their rifles at him.

Over the years, I've translated various German reports of incidents where a lone man made his way over towards their trenches in daylight, and having satisfied themselves that he wasn't, for example, carrying a sack full of grenades or a satchel charge, they allowed him to come on, out of curiosity and confident that they could deal easily with any threat he posed, but more than half-expecting that his own side would fire on the man if he was a deserter. Several of these incidents involved soldiers/medics trying to reach wounded men lying in NML, and if there was no risk to them, the Germans directly in line often did not fire, but others to either side of them sometimes did. So Trigg, with his rifle, was extremely lucky.

It's certainly impressive that the Brigadier General (name?) went far enough forward to see the German NCO 'scanning the horizon' through his field glasses, and the fact that the German was doing this suggests to me that he was trying to figure out something that made not a lot of sense to him.

If Trigg survived and returned home at the end of the war, he would presumably have been taken to task if there was a charge of desertion outstanding against him .... but his MIC seems to speak against that. I wonder if there are post-war records somewhere that would clarify the situation?

Anyway, it occurs to me that this is a far better scenario for a low-budget film than 'Forbidden Ground', which I recently spent the price of a packet of cigarettes on ...

Incidentally, I presume that Trigg's unfaithful wife continued to receive her allowances during his captivity. I wonder whether there is a record of a divorce after the war?

And if Trigg did in fact desert to the enemy deliberately, I expect it would have been easy enough for him to spin a convincing enough yarn when he reached a PoW camp, but when it became known where he was, would someone in authority have informed the senior British representative in the camp that the man was a deserter?

[rolt968]

I had a quick look at TNA Discovery to see if Trigg divorced his wife immediately after the war. There seem to have been 3 Trigg divorces started by the husband in 1919, but none of them was FJHP Trigg. He doesn't appear in any of the cases in the TNA set (up to 1925?).

Roger.

[IPT]

Yes, I searched through the divorces too. The only newspaper mention I could find of him was his losing an appeal against Vauxhall Motors in June 1914.

The Brigadier General was Cyril John Deverell (1874-1947), I think. I couldn't find any memoirs for him. I wonder who the Company Commander was, as he may mention Trigg somewhere. Trigg appears in some very detailed family trees on Ancestry, but i'm not a subscriber.

[rolt968]

Yes, I searched through the divorces too. The only newspaper mention I could find of him was his losing an appeal against Vauxhall Motors in June 1914.

The Brigadier General was Cyril John Deverell (1874-1947), I think. I couldn't find any memoirs for him. I wonder who the Company Commander was, as he may mention Trigg somewhere. Trigg appears in some very detailed family trees on Ancestry, but i'm not a subscriber.

I have had a look. Most have them have the same information. Most of them don't have anything much we haven't found. His wife was Mary Hyde.

However at the end of the entry in one tree (unsourced) it says :

1975 Jun— Age: 88

Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, England

Died in 3 Counties Asylum. Spent most of post war period there after suffering shell shock in WW1.

Roger.

[SteveMarsdin]

If Trigg married Mary Hyde (b 1890) in 1909 (all in the Luton area), there was a Mary Hyde born the same year who died in nearby St Albans in 1965 .As this pre-dates his death in 1975 (and if it was his wife) it suggests they were divorced at sometime.

[generalist]

Yes, I searched through the divorces too. The only newspaper mention I could find of him was his losing an appeal against Vauxhall Motors in June 1914.

The Brigadier General was Cyril John Deverell (1874-1947), I think. I couldn't find any memoirs for him. I wonder who the Company Commander was, as he may mention Trigg somewhere. Trigg appears in some very detailed family trees on Ancestry, but i'm not a subscriber.

Deverell did not write any memoirs and there isn't a biography, but according to his entry in the ODNB a notebook covering his time commanding 20 Brigade is held by the IWM. However, I can't seem to find it in their catalogue!

Does any brigade/battalion diary entry survive for 6 February?

Andrew.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Fascinating find, Tom. I don't suppose you've also got the 'all available evidence in writing' collected by the OC 2nd Border Regt? ...

No, and I'm quite very surprised that the report above passed the War Office censors during the culling which was carried out before the release of the WO95 material to the PRO. I suspect that the Trigg affair would have been deliberately buried very soon after he deserted - a Company Commander's batman going over to the Germans on the Somme front so close to the 1/7/16 disaster would not be something the Army and the War Office would want to broadcast. Ditto post-war. I would think that Trigg would not have been pursued after he returned to the UK for exactly the same reason - the War Office simply wouldn't want the event publicised.

Its a terrible pity that his service record seems not to have survived.

Died in 3 Counties Asylum. Spent most of post war period there after suffering shell shock in WW1.

I'm tempted to wonder, real, or contrived ? - but there is too much of a temptation to speculate about this event already.

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... Does any brigade/battalion diary entry survive for 6 February? ...

I've seen nothing which would even hint at our shooting one of the 2nd Borders going over to the Germans about the 6th. Over the years I've examined thousands of war diaries and this is the first time that I've seen the likes of the document in post #4.

Tom

[Guest]

Do we know which German units were opposite, and might there be a mention in their relevant diaries?

Mike

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Do we know which German units were opposite, and might there be a mention in their relevant diaries?

Mike

There is probably a good chance of the ID of the German unit(s) being mentioned in Divisional or Corps war diaries. It has been suggested off-forum that Trigg's interrogation report could well survive in the German archives. - That could maybe make interesting reading.

Tom

[Guest]

That could maybe make interesting reading.

Tom

Indeed.

Mike

[generalist]

I've seen nothing which would even hint at our shooting one of the 2nd Borders going over to the Germans about the 6th. Over the years I've examined thousands of war diaries and this is the first time that I've seen the likes of the document in post #4.

Tom

I've been wondering about this, and I think it's possible to read the sequence of events this way:

6th February, a man is shot and killed whilst in no-man's land, but it's treated as an accident - a sentry thought he was a German patrol, perhaps.

[Time passes.]

12th June, Trigg runs for the German lines. It's weird, unexpected, and no-one shoots. In the discussion afterwards, someone says "goodness, what about X back in February, that might have been the same thing", and they decide it might have been - well, then, isn't it lucky he got shot after all, case closed.

I don't think this interpretation implies the existence of a drastic shoot-any-defectors policy, so much as a retrospective "lucky we did", and it's still consistent with Deverell's report. (as is hushing it up post-war because it would be embarrassing...)

Thoughts?

Andrew.

[Philip Wilson]

The Brigadier General was Cyril John Deverell (1874-1947), I think. I couldn't find any memoirs for him.

Here is a picture of Major-General C.J DEVERELL GOC 3^RD Division - his biographical details can be found on pages 100 and 101 of HEATHCOTE’s ‘British Field Marshals 1736-1997.'

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi,

I don't think these events are that unusual, when I wrote "With Bayonets fixed", I recorded a similar event which occurred in 13/DLI and after publication received a word via PM from forum member PB that the event was recorded in the German Archives, as below.

On the morning of 7 October at 0900 hours 15142 Sergeant W Stewart of A Company was seen near a sap head by an officer of the Royal Engineers. This officer ordered the sergeant to return to the British front line, which he did. Shortly afterwards he was seen wandering across No Mans Land towards the German Lines. Sergeant James Smith MM of C Company ran out to get him but was too late and Sergeant Stewart was surrounded by enemy soldiers and taken prisoner. Where upon Sergeant Smith opened fire and shot and killed one of the captors. It was presumed that Sergeant Stewart was either drunk or mad. No 15142 Sergeant W Stewart has been traced the nearest man found was 19872 Sergeant W Stewart who served with 14//DLI before joining 13/DLI.

Stewart was seen wandering in No Man's Land on October 7th and eventually fell into enemy hands despite the best efforts of Sjt Smith MM. A record of his interrogation is reproduced in Christopher Duffy's "Through German Eyes" and this reveals that Stewart intentionally crossed over to the enemy after failing to persuade the other 12 men in his position to come with him (they were afraid that the Germans would shoot them, apparantly) Over the course of two interviews he told the Germans about impending attacks by the 23rd and 47th Divisions and gave them details about tanks that he'd seen at close quarters.

The German records relate that Stewart was on old soldier, already wounded once, who had served at Gallipoli. In your book you mention 15142 Stewart as being untraceable but that there was a 19872 Stewart who served initially with 14/DLI. Given what Stewart told the Germans, is it possible he was part of the draft (I'm going from memory here)sent to the battalion from the Army Vetinary Corps who had served in the Middle East?

Hope this is of interest,

regards

John

[Chris_Baker]

The "Times" of 19 September 1916 lists 9209 Trigg as being in German hands.