RAF in Ireland 1920

[Airshipped]

Hi,

As you'll probably have noticed from previous posts, my primary interest lies in the Irish contribution to the flying services (RNAS, RFC, RAF) in the Great War. (I've one volume published to date in a three-volume series, and am currently buried in service records of the RNAS).

I came across a number of files re the RAF in Ireland in the course of following the role of the US Naval air service in defending the Western Approaches from Irish bases. One oddity in a particular file - and a subject I'd hope to touch upon in the third volume - was the role of the RAF in Ireland in the immediate post-war years. Aircraft were of course not permitted to engage in air-to-ground operations and it's quite clear from much material available that 'Boom' Trenchard held Tudor in very low regard.

However, an interesting snippet here - see image below - concerns various Irish officers whom Bonham-Carter regarded as suspect.

I was wondering if anyone could positively identify the men in question? Is suspect ME McErlean to be actually Michael Henry McErlean (DOB 16/09/1899, from Dundalk Co Louth with an Australian next-of-kin address). I had suspected the JA Mansfield to have been an RFC (and later RAF) wartime officer, John Alfred Mansfield (an Englishman), but he was demobilized in 1919.

Any suggestions for these 8 suspects?

[corisande]

J A Mansfield I think is

James Alexander Mansfield MC, R I Fus and RAF. Look at his MIC - Baldonnel address !

He was seconded to RFC on 18 Mar 1918

He could be this man in as much only James A Mansfield in 1901 Irish Census (assuming he is Irish) but you would have to dig a bit to establish that. This Ancestry tree does concur that that is him. And another tree has him as well.

His MC makes him easier to follow in LG

[mhifle]

Hi,

In the Royal Aero Club Aviators’ Certificates, there is a Captain H J Seagrave from the 1st Wiltshire Regiment with a Date of Graduation Certificate of 16 Sept 1916

Regards Mark

[corisande]

1 Apr 1918 In LG Capt H J Seagrave is appointed temp Major in RFC Flying Branch

11 Nov 1935 Lt Col H J Seagrave was CO of 1st Wiltshire Regt stationed in Malaya. (article in Singapore Free Press)

This is from this site which also has a mutilated photo of him

"Lieutenant Seagrave joined the Battalion in 1908 and was later seconded to the West African Frontier Force until 1915. Later during the 1st World War he went to France on the staff and then joined the Royal Flying Corps. After the war he returned to the 2nd Battalion of which he took command in 1935. He died in 1956

There is a sailing record 23 July 1913 to Lagos (he might not have travelled as his name crossed out) Lt H J Seagrave aged 26. Born circa 1887 which fits with his commission in 1908

He entered Sandhurst in 1906, left 1908. You can get his details on entry at Sandhurst for £3 on this link which may give you more on him

[mhifle]

He is on the Dec 1917 Army List

Royal Flying Corps

Flight Commanders

Military Wing, Aeroplanes

Seagrave, Capt, H J, Wilts R (l) 21 Dec 16, (27 Oct 14 Army)

Regards Mark

[corisande]

6 Jun 1918. Leinster Regt. temp 2nd Lt R Stafford-Langham resigns his commission on appointment to the RAF

[corisande]

I suspect that " G W Tyrrell" was "Garrett William Giffard Tyrrell" from Kildare. MIC has "Giffard" as do a number of genealogy posts on web, but there are also refs with "Gifford"

There is a MIC but no tie to RAF, with a Kildare address. He moved to England in 1924, then on to USA where he was an engineer at the limestone mines in West Winfield, and dies there

[Airshipped]

Thanks for this information, it is really useful: I had taken a look on Ancestry but the large number of matches had left me with uncertain results. (Thanks for the tips re techniques of research refinement - I've every confidence now of tracking them down).

I'll post the final results of any research here on the site when I've had a chance to compile the information.

[corisande]

I don't think that the names on the list were necessarily "suspect". I think it is more likely that they had family in Ireland and that was the reason not to post them to Ireland. I have come across this in Army examples. The memo is dated end Sep 1920, when the War of Independence was starting to hot up.. Certainly one could not fault Mansfield's credentials.

[jdoyle]

could G W Tyrrell have a typo and possibly be Guy Yelverton Tyrrell?

[corisande]

That Guy Yelverton Tyrell suggestion of jdoyle shows a lot of plus points as that man is connected to both Ireland and RAF

M.C. London Gazette 1 January 1918.

Guy Yelverton Tyrrell was born on 5 November 1893, and was commissioned into the East Kent Regiment in 1914. He served with the 3rd Battalion in France and Belgium, and was attached to the Royal Flying Corps as Flying Officer on 12 December 1917. He transferred to the Royal Air Force on 1 April 1918 as Flying Officer, becoming Flight Lieutenant in December 1923, and Group Captain in June 1940.

And his MIC shows a Co Louth address, and 1911 census has him as born Dublin and at school in Ireland

[Frank_East]

Group Captain I M Bonham-Carter OBE is shown as Commander of:

No 11 (Irish) Group in March 1920, and March 1921 and in March 1922 as Commander of RAF Ireland.

By March 1929,Bonham Carter then a Air Commodore CB OBE is shown as Commander RAF HQ Halton.

He also served in the Second World War,serving as Station Commander RAF Waddington circa 1944.

Tudor as Major General (temporary Air Vice Marshal) Sir H H Tudor KCB CMG is shown as Commander Palestine Command in March 1923...does not appear to have held other senior appointments outside this period in the 1920s

[Airshipped]

That Guy Yelverton Tyrell suggestion of jdoyle shows a lot of plus points as that man is connected to both Ireland and RAF

M.C. London Gazette 1 January 1918.

Guy Yelverton Tyrrell was born on 5 November 1893, and was commissioned into the East Kent Regiment in 1914. He served with the 3rd Battalion in France and Belgium, and was attached to the Royal Flying Corps as Flying Officer on 12 December 1917. He transferred to the Royal Air Force on 1 April 1918 as Flying Officer, becoming Flight Lieutenant in December 1923, and Group Captain in June 1940.

And his MIC shows a Co Louth address, and 1911 census has him as born Dublin and at school in Ireland

Mount Jerome cemetery records suggest that he was widowed in 1919, his wife being Emmie (née Fitzgibbon) and her details being recorded alongside a half-dozen other Fitzgibbons. I've plenty of additional leads with the information supplied. There are a few online and offline histories of the Buffs so I should have plenty of information available for Tyrrell's pre-RFC/RAF days.

He wasn't decorated in WWII:

http://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/catalogue-archive/lot.php?auction_id=16&lot_id=17793

[jdoyle]

TYRRELL--FITZGIBBON -- July 21, 1918, at Christ Church, Leeson Park, Dublin, by the Rev Percy Phair, M.A., Captain Guy Yelverton Tyrrell, M.C., R.A.F., youngest son of the late Robert Yelverton Tyrrell, S.F.T.C.D., and Mrs. Tyrrell, 4 Sandford Terrace, Dublin, to Emma, daughter of the late Henry FitzGibbon, M.D., and Mrs. FitzGibbon, 16 Northbrook Road, Dublin.

the father was a classics academic at Trinity.

[mhifle]

I was wondering if Flying Officer G W Tyrrell was in any way connected to Colonel Tyrrell, Royal Engineers who was captured with Brigadier General Lucas by the IRA on 26 June 1920

Regards Mark

[jdoyle]

I think Colonel Tyrrell was Canadian, Lt-Col William Grant Tyrrell DSO. (1882-1961), later Brigadier. His MIC shows RE records in Fermoy.

On a similar track, I was trying to find out if Cadet G F MacKay (held prisoner at Boland's Mill during the Rising, later RFC/RAF) was related to (or indeed the same man as) F/O E F MacKay held prisoner by the IRA when the plane he was in was captured (the propellor of which is in the museum at Collins Barracks). They turned out to be unrelated.