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Remembered Today:

Further mass burials


towisuk

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Right so that is agreed, just one small question how are you going to ensure that the DNA aspect in the last point actually takes place when circumstances permit? In the real world the British MOD have allowed at least 70 sets of human remains, partial or otherwise to accumulate and now intend to hold mass interments in 2014. This number includes the BL-15 and I have no doubt that the number has increased since the figures were first released by the CWGC. How do we know that with the exception of the BL-15 any of the others could have been subject to DNA analysis when the MOD operate a deliberate policy of secrecy and a complete lack if transparency with regards to the treatment of our dead. By the way do you really think that DNA profiling would be used when there is an unrealistic chance of identification?

Bye

Norman

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Norman, I suppose point 3 relies heavily on the processes of each countries relevant government department (hmmmmm.... :glare: ) My suggestion would be that first the remains must contain enough identifiable DNA material for matching (without any it would be a pointless exercise continuing). Then there has to be some kind of agreed finite pool of potential 'missing' candidates like at Fromelles where we could quantify the numbers of likely soldiers with reasonable accuracy. It's just determining what these limits should be that is the question.

Cheers,
Tim L.

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Thanks Tim my question is really about whether the British MOD accept the use of DNA as a valuable tool as part of their responsibility to ascertain identification of the recovered British war dead. It is a fact that discussing this aspect is interesting but will not in any way ensure that the technique is used when the circumstances permit. The concern should be that just how many recovered remains could have been subjected to DNA profiling but the technique was ignored. Perhaps you can appraise us of the Australian situation and whether the use of DNA has been adopted as a formal technique available to those responsible for attempted identification.

Regards

Norman

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I don't agree with the second point and feel my thoughts to be justified after what I saw and experienced throughout the Fromelles recovery. But I'm happy to agree with the first and third points.

Cheers,

Tim L.

I don't agree with the second point either. In all I have read, and my experience of being at the opening of the Pheasant Wood cemetery, I can only express deepest gratitude to all who have helped with the Fromelles recovery. I find it the most profoundly moving and the saddest of any CWGC cemetery I have been to - especially reading the inscriptions from loved ones - those loved ones alive today.

I most certainly know there are those who agree with the second point and they are entitled to that view. But I find it better not to engage with those people on this particular topic. Call me too emotional if you will, but that's how it is each time I go to Fromelles. For this reason I choose not to go an organised tour there - some years ago the guide strongly expressed his opinion against the recovery. It is better I go independently and just 'be there'. No words necessary.

Judy

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Given the need to have a DNA comparison sample (descendant) please someone tell me with regard to these Great War projects of using DNA (alone) to identify individual remains exactly what is the % success rate. ?

khaki

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... what is the % success rate. ?

khaki

We have a Fromelles expert posting on this thread but - prepare to be surprised - I think 128 men out of 250 have currently been identified - I am not sure if this was done exclusively with DNA techniques or whether some isotopic evidence may have been gathered. Please comment Tim.

As has been said above, anyone who attended the opening of Fromelles and spoke to the relatives there will be in no doubt that the effort was worthwhile - but of course having made the journey from the other side of the world , they were by definition a bit partial!

But the ID success must have surprised the authorities and scared them more than a little - the genie is out of the bottle - or perhaps the Digger is out of the pit - and it will be more difficult to deny the use of DNA techniques in the future and many of us suspect there are many more pits to be found whether by accident, development etc or by being actively sought out.

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Honestly, it's all about money. I don't know how this can be a surprise. Forensic recovery, DNA sampling, reburials etc. it all costs.

There simply isn't enough to go around unless of course you'd rather ditch an aircraft carrier or shelve the odd battalion or two.

I was at the PW ceromony, the memories will stay with me forever. Every fallen soldier deserves the same treatment but it is simply not possible without funding.

The Fromelles project was remarkable, it proved it that modern forensic science can be used to identify the fallen to a high degree of accuracy. It brought closure to many families but it did not set a precedent that the MOD or CWGC are obliged to follow.

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Honestly, it's all about money. I don't know how this can be a surprise. Forensic recovery, DNA sampling, reburials etc. it all costs.

(Pheasant Wood) did not set a precedent that the MOD or CWGC are obliged to follow.

Quite agree and no one is surprised by that. One has to fight to get one's share of public money.

I agree that that the MOD is most likely exceedingly keen not to see PW established as a precedent but the PW Cemetery is very much there and established. As such it should be a great aid in keeping the MOD "honest". The MOD cannot deny that DNA ID works - this is the what precedent is eventually made of , I suppose.

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Given the need to have a DNA comparison sample (descendant) please someone tell me with regard to these Great War projects of using DNA (alone) to identify individual remains exactly what is the % success rate. ?

khaki

Khaki,

It's never DNA by itself (or any individual process for that matter) that provides a positive identification. It's a combination of archaeological, anthropological, historical and DNA research. All of these factors bear some weight on any successful identification. But by and large, the most important factor is of course the DNA. The other factors can offer strong indications and sometimes even positive ID's (i.e. a disc is found with the remains) but it's the DNA that generally provides an irrefutable direct scientific link to living family.

I am aware of several occasions where DNA has been the over-riding factor that confirmed identifications of WW1 remains.

Zonnebeke 2007 - Five bodies recovered during excavation work and three have thus far been identified (Hunter, Calder & Storey)

Messines 2008 - One set of remains recovered during an archaeological dig and identified (Mather)

Fromelles 2008-09 - So far 124 of 250 have been successfully identified but testing hasn't yet finished and descendants haven't been located for all of them. (only one of these was without the aid of DNA but later confirmed by DNA when a descendant was located)

I've also seen that DNA has recently been used to help identify the nationality of five WW2 soldiers (Japanese) found in Papua New Guinea.

Basically, as long as viable DNA can be retrieved from the remains and an appropriate descendant located, then the chance of DNA providing a positive identification is excellent.

Cheers,

Tim L.

P.S. And interestingly, from what I understand, the actual DNA extraction and matching process is reasonably cheap in comparison to the other recovery and burial processes.

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Tim what nationality are these that you refer to?

Zonnebeke 2007 - Five bodies recovered during excavation work and three have thus far been identified (Hunter, Calder & Storey)

Messines 2008 - One set of remains recovered during an archaeological dig and identified (Mather)

When you state "thus far" in the first one does this mean that the ID process us ongoing, I presume that the named soldiers have been buried by now.

Regards

Norman

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Mather was from New South Wales Australia, Norman and his quite complex ID process was fascinating and the subject of a presentation at a GWF conference a few years ago.

Those identified of the Zon. 5 are also Australians.

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The process has (in my understanding) another year to run but all the PW soldiers have been buried. The last was buried during the Dedication Ceremony. DNA samples from potential relatives continue to come in however hence the ID Panel continue to meet for one last year (2014).

I speak with no authority, only idle chit-chit with my Mother (who Chairs the ID Panel and was the lead Scientific Adviser).

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Mather was from New South Wales Australia, Norman and his quite complex ID process was fascinating and the subject of a presentation at a GWF conference a few years ago.

Those identified of the Zon. 5 are also Australians.

Thanks Ian, I asked the question because I believe that the British MOD have not used DNA as part of the ID process with of course the exception of Fromelles and the ongoing BL-15. Just an aside, it is almost impossible to backtrack to obtain the CWGC notifications of interments of the discovered dead as I have been informed that they, the CWGC cannot archive the announcements. One sad by-product of this is that the circumstances of the finding and identification of the fallen including those "Known unto God" is lost forever as even with the 60+ interments made at Cement House in Flanders of those found at the Boezinge industrial site there is no mention whatsoever even in the cemetery register on the site or indeed on the CWGC Cement House webpage.

Regards

Norman

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Honestly, it's all about money. I don't know how this can be a surprise. Forensic recovery, DNA sampling, reburials etc. it all costs.

There simply isn't enough to go around unless of course you'd rather ditch an aircraft carrier or shelve the odd battalion or two.

I was at the PW ceromony, the memories will stay with me forever. Every fallen soldier deserves the same treatment but it is simply not possible without funding.

The Fromelles project was remarkable, it proved it that modern forensic science can be used to identify the fallen to a high degree of accuracy. It brought closure to many families but it did not set a precedent that the MOD or CWGC are obliged to follow.

Check post No 15 by skipman......

regards

Tom

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... as even with the 60+ interments made at Cement House in Flanders of those found at the Boezinge industrial site there is no mention whatsoever even in the cemetery register on the site or indeed on the CWGC Cement House webpage.

Norman,

I agree that this is regrettable. The CWGC should remedy this - though not sure exactly how best this could be done.

I would also agree that antipodean enthusiasm for embracing modern forensic ID techniques is not matched by the MOD/CWGC!

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I was referring to the Billions of pounds WASTED by the MOD, here's one just plucked off the internet............

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165745/MoD-wastes-6-6bn-unused-kit-supplies-axes-thousands-frontline-troops.html

It would only take a fraction of the money saved, to service the recovery and identification of bodies that the men who gave their lives, are, at the very least, due...

regards

Tom

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Agreed - shocking stuff! I would still question the use of the money for recovering the fallen rather than protecting the living (serving). It's very subjective of course.

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If the people at the top didn't waste billions of pounds today's servicemen would be well protected.

What happens to the people who waste this money allocated to the MOD ????

regards

Tom

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The cost has absolutely nothing to do with attempting to ID the fallen when you consider the overall MOD budget. In my view it has never been and remains that a choice is made between caring for serving members of the armed forces and discharging the debt of honour towards the fallen which the MOD have a statutory responsibility to do so. I say again the use or intended use of DNA technology must be put into context with reality. Again the costs of the Fromelles investigation were I understand shared between the two governments and the only other instance of the British using DNA is the ongoing case of the BL-15, hardly excessive is it?.

Norman.

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Sorry but you have completely lost me now, anyway finally just what is the "staggering WW1 project" you mention. If you make such statements then you must realize that they should be substantiated if not I am sure you will understand that such a statement becomes somewhat meaningless.

Regards

Norman

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What's the moral difference between a RN war grave (sunken warship) and a mass grave on land, why can't they be honored in the same way.

khaki

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