CWGC's Campaign for Britain's overlooked war graves

[NigelS]

Article from the Daily Telegraph's website 'Campaign for Britain's overlooked war graves'

NigelS

[johnmelling1979]

Hello Nigel

Just read the article...and its does make me angry seeing churchyards \ memorials in a bad state.... And I am not religious at all.

A lot of the churches and graveyards are in a terrible state..... so if they don't bother with normal graves I cant see them "specially" maintaining the War graves .

one of the churches near me St john the evangelist, Whittle le woods, Chorley (YES I will name it and shame it).. has a couple of war graves, and the churchyard is in an awful state.

All churches and the graves should be maintained, there is no excuse to leave them to get ruined.

What happens to all the money given in charity to the church !!

I think the local MPs and local councils should create a local organisation with the general community to deal with these issues... but will never happen

Cheers John Melling

[Tom Morgan]

From For the Fallen - Laurence Binyon

To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the night.

I don't think so.

[Myrtle]

NigelS Thank you for posting the link

I have been trying for a number of years to get something done about a burial ground in South Wales that contains 3 WW1 graves including that of a relative. I have telephoned and written to the vicar but he has said that he is unable to do anything about the situation even though the next door grave to of one of the WW1 graves is so precarious that if it falls it will probably shatter the stone. Each time I visit the cemetery I usually have to cut through large quantities of vegetation including Japanese Knotweed, which is sometimes well over head height. The area which was the site of the old church is kept quite clear but the areas beyond that are dreadful.

Ironically my grandmother who is buried in the same overgrown grave as one of the WW1 soldiers, was housekeeper to the local vicar during the early 1900s. I wonder how long she would have kept her job if she had looked after the vicarage to the same standard as the cemetery in which she is buried.

I will be contacting CWGC to see if this particular cemetery is on their Category 4 list.

[keithmroberts]

It is unfortunate that when I looked at this earlier I could find no reference to it on the CWGC website, not even a press release.

Keith

[Timbob1001]

Slightly annoyed after reading the article - my experience of dealing with the CWGC and trying to restore three local war graves at my church in Somerset was quite negative.

The CWGC's line was simple - as these were private monuments (works of art in their own right) erected by the families concerned they would have nothing to do with them until they fell into serious disrepair. Only then would the CWGC act by replacing them with standard markers. Since the families concerned had long ago died out or moved away and the local church to put it mildly is strapped for money no one would take responsibility for their maintenance.

It took a year of fund-raisng by the Wedmore War Graves Appeal in the UK and abroad before we had enough funds to restore these war graves to their original condition.

Tim

See: http://www.wedmorewargraves.co.uk

[NigelS]

It is unfortunate that when I looked at this earlier I could find no reference to it on the CWGC website, not even a press release.

Keith

That was the first place I checked to see if there was anything more, Keith. Not the first time that a story's appeared in the press ahead of any official statement or press release (not just for the CWGC) and probably a case of the Telegraph being given an early heads up ahead of any official release is put up on the website. Although newsworthy to us, hardly material that warrants 'leaking'!

NigelS

[Seadog]

Another areticle on the subject:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2494023/Britains-forgotten-fallen-Millions-flock-war-graves-France-Belgium--realise-300-000-heroes-lie-buried-home-soil-So-council-jobsworths-want-hidden.html

Norman

[keithmroberts]

There's a report in the Centenary News e-bulletin, but still nothing to be seen on the CWGC site. If the site were taken seriously one is expected to believe that they have issued only three press releases in 2013. I really wish they didn't dumb down the site. You can't even find a link to their Royal Charter on the site. I have asked.

Keith

Edit: I would like to be informed when the job of press officer next becomes vacant. With such a workload I might even abandon my retirement and apply!

[Shankly]

There are 40 odd CWGC graves in our local churchyard - I know from talking to someone who helps to look after the churchyard that the church gets money from the CWGC, yet no special care is taken of these graves. Does anyone know exactly what the criteria are for the CWGC paying money to churches, and what steps are taken to ensure that it is used appropriately?

[keithmroberts]

There will be a contract, probably I suspect limited to keeping the graves tidy, and possibly specifying regular mowing.

Keith

[Timbob1001]

And probably only CWGC markers and not private memorials erected to war dead.

Tim

[Kitchener's Bugle]

I live in a town in which we are fortunate to have a decent local authority and a "friends of the Cemetery" association.

Our Cemetery has about 230 CWGC headstones and a further 70 burials with private monuments.

In my experience it is with the private monuments that the real problem exists.

[Seadog]

The CWGC bear no responsibility for the care of private grave plots that record a war casualty and which do not also have a formal CWGC headstone in place. I presume this is why on their website the CWGC are trying to contact the relatives of many plots in civilian cemeteries within the UK in order to obtain permission to erect a formal headstone. Regrettably they are somewhat secretive about this and the web site is very brief on this matter. In fact it was suggested that this request was prompted by the IFTC research that has identified many who are not on the CWGC database, perhaps someone can clarify the official CWGC position on this. In the case of disused cemeteries it is my understanding that the local authority are responsible for maintenance under the Public Health Act and which can vary in quality. I would have thought that the CWGC bear complete responsibility for the care of their own headstones irrespective of the status of the cemetery. What is required in my opinion is much more detail on the statement made by the CWGC in Post 1 to actually explain just how the public can get involved.

CWGC Appeal

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2013/10/appeal-for-relatives-(4).aspx

Norman

[keithmroberts]

Some at least of the appeals for relatives relate to family plots as I was able to draw the attention of a recent appeal to what I believe to be the family concerned. The man remembered was not a newly accepted casualty.

I agree entirely that a slightly fuller explanation would be helpful.

Keith

[Seadog]

Thanks for the info Keith, just how difficult it will be for those who wish to maintain war graves in Church and also Council-maintained disused cemeteries can be gleaned from this which is from the newspaper report in Post 8. Mind you I think the Church have a valid point about “preferential treatment” for war graves which I assume refers to both private and CWGC plots.

But the Commission team also came to Parliament with a message for officialdom. Because while they have no problem erecting their notable green signs which guide people to cemeteries all over the world, it is proving much harder at home. Some British councils don’t want any extra street ‘furniture’. Some church bodies do not want signs which suggest preferential treatment for one set of graves over another. One church in Liverpool doesn’t even want headstones cluttering a recently designated ‘green space’. Originally the plan had been to erect signs for all 13,000 sites in time for next year’s World War I centenary. So far, permission has been granted for fewer than 900.

Norman

[NigelS]

The problem that the CWGC is experiencing in getting its green signs erected at some sites was mentioned in the recent 'First World War Commemoration' Common's debate

Hansard, 7 Nov 2013 : Column 513 (Click for access to the full report)
Mr Jones: I commend that body. The CWGC’s remit is defined by its charter, but the important point is that the CWGC does look after all those graves in the UK that come under its charter. We are talking about either the traditional stones that people will recognise or private memorials. I pay tribute to councillors in the north-east of England, all of whose areas have now erected these green signs. I ask hon. Members of any party who wish to have them erected in their local cemeteries to contact me or the hon. Member for Broadland, as we will be only too willing to help. We have had a bit of a glitch with the Church of England—I am sorry that the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) is not here for this—which seemed to offer a protracted and bureaucratic reason for why we could not put these signs up. I am glad to say that some progress has been made, including in Durham, where the Archbishop of Canterbury, the former Bishop of Durham, seemed to cut through the red tape of the Church of England. It would be nice to see those tasteful signs on all churchyards, just to raise awareness, so that local people know that the graves are there.

It could be, as it seems unlikely, that the Mr Jones had his facts wrong but the 'We are talking about either the traditional stones that people will recognise or private memorials' above does imply that the CWGC's Charter include responsibility for the maintenance private memorials. A fact that could be confirmed or otherwise by sight of the Charter.

The signage programme was featured on the CWGC's website as a news item back in July last year Click

NigelS

[Tom Morgan]

I don' think that the CWGC's charter requires it to maintain the war graves which have private memorials, as it doesn't own these memorials. (Though it is allowed to take action when the private memorial has deteriorated to the extent that the grave can no longer easily be found).

It is required to record where the war graves are and answer enquiries about locations. The signs are part of this.

Tom

[David_Underdown]

The web site searches are also to do with getting family input into personal inscriptions on new headstones I understand.

[Seadog]

Where does that come from David, the CWGC? and what new headstones, replacements for existing ones or completely new ones on private grave plots. Frankly everything the CWGC says right now is so confusing I doubt whether anyone knows just what they are talking about.

Norman

[David_Underdown]

From CWGC twitter feed.

[charliebrady]

I have found this topic most interesting, because - it must be about thirty years ago - the CWGC had a job vacancy to maintain and repair where necessary individual graves and headstones in local churchyards and cemeteries in the north-east of England. This involved visiting sites through a regular programme, liaising with the responsible authorities and carrying out any necessary work with their agreement(s).

I have sometimes regretted that I did not follow it up, but due to personal circumstances at the time did not do so, as it would involve considerable travel (transport provided) and time spent away from home.

Presumably from the posts this particular work was a victim of cost-cutting, and is no longer carried out. A pity.

[Myrtle]

I have received a reply from CWGC. The burial ground that I mentioned in #4 is not being regarded as a Category 4 site. From the reply, it sounds as if the burial grounds within category 4 are those where it is considered necessary for the casualties to be commemorated elsewhere.

[keithmroberts]

Myrtle

next time you visit it might be worth taking a camera along and sending the image to the CWGC. Perhaps to whoever replied to you. It might just help.

Keith

[Myrtle]

Keith

Yes, I have photographs which I took on previous visits but as I am in London and the graveyard is in South Wales it will be a while before I can get hold of up to date photographs. I gather, from the CWGC email that the Regional Supervisor may visit the site. I initially contacted the local vicar over the state of the site rather than the CWGC as my relatives' plot including the WW1 casualty is marked with a private gravestone.