RHA or RFA

[shutt]

My Gt Uncle served with the 179th Brigade RFA and later the 180th Brigade RFA until May 1918 when he was killed. Prior to the 179th, I believe he joined up with the 257th 1/1 or 325th 2/1 Brigade (Lowland) between May 11th and June 3rd 1916 at Redford Barracks, Edinburgh, having the Regimental ? number 18554, then given a service number 651943 which thanks to other members help in the past I understand indicates these units. I also have a letter from one of his comrades after his death, written to his sister and with reference to a photograph take when they were at Redford Barracks, which seems to fit in. What is puzzling me is that in the "Soldiers Died", he is listed as RHA & RFA. Were either of these Brigades at Redford RHA rather than RFA ?. It`s been puzzling me a bit, so any help to solve this confusion would really be appreciated.

[David Porter]

bikertom,

Soldiers Died gives the Regiment as "Royal Horse Artillery and Royal Field Artillery" because that is what it was known as in the Great War. A soldier could serve in either one or both during his period in the forces. Your Gt Uncle served entirely with the RFA.

The dates May 11th to June 3rd 1916 are the dates the 257th Brigade RFA briefly existed. On June 3rd 1916 it became 260th Brigade RFA. They were already in France, with 51st Division, when the brigade renumbering took place. Therefore, I'm inclined to say your Gt Uncle was associated with 325th Brigade RFA. Looking back at previous threads on this subject, you also give him the number 183534 or 185554, which if a regular RFA number, would have been handed out in October 1916. So I would give this as a joining date and not any earlier. It looks like by the end of 1916 he was posted to the 65th Divisional Artillery at Chelmsford but subsequently joined 383rd Battery prior to it going overseas in May 1917.

[battiscombe]

the enlistment [and numbering] of RFA and RHA was treated as one branch of the artillery [if he had enlisted in RGA he would have received an RGA number and appeared as RGA in 'soldiers died']. This listing in 'soldiers died' is the same for all RFA/RHA men who appear in the same section of the record. .. it does not mean that he may have been in the RHA. I have think you have in fact identified the main points of his service record.. Redford Barracks would not have been base for any of these units I think .. perhaps the home of one of the wartime RFA Reserve Brigades when his comrade was there .. maybe 5B Reserve Brigade consisting of 59, 60 and 61 Reserve Batteries RFA ?? [it would have been a unit for processing recruits and men returning from hospital and the like, as well as having its own staff]

[David Porter]

Actually, 383rd Battery was formed at 6C Reserve Brigade, Redford, nr Edinburgh at the same time 376th - 381st Batteries were being formed in the 65th Divisional Artillery area (Chelmsford). It looks like many regulars were sent to Chelmsford to help form these batteries. Here are numbers near 651943:

651926 Robert Coulter previously 101446, posted to C/325 Bde on December 11, 1916

651927 Joseph Daniel Frazier previously 113445, posted to C/325 Bde on December 11, 1916

651936 Walter Grainger, Killed in action on March 28, 1918, with 381st Bty. 158th Bde.

651944 Walter Fletcher previously L/9925, posted to 65th Div Art. December 11, 1916

651958 Arthur Holt previously 159336 joined 381st Bty. 158th Bde.

So we have a posting date of December 11, 1916 and then renumbering as territorials as short while later.

ACI 2403 dated December 22, 1916

EDIT: I have found postings from 65th Divisional Artillery to 383rd Battery dated February 15, 1917.

[shutt]

Thanks David and battiscombe, I am now clear about the RHA and RFA . I believe I may have posted that question before some time ago and been given the answer, only just realised that so apologies if so. My memory is getting worse, must be old age creeping up on me !.

I am still a little confused over his numbering. I know his service number was 651943 and that is on his medal card. Among his personal effects as well as an ID bracelet bearing that number, is a round ID disk of a brown plastic like material I think, with the number 185554 and RFA stamped on it. I was under the impression that the first number indicated his joining the 257th or 325th in May or early June 1916 ?. His payroll records from the 179th Brigade though, start in early October 1916 which is interesting as that ties in with David`s remarks.

As for Redford Barracks, I am sure he was there. One of his friends who served with him in the 383rd Battery, 179th Brigade, wrote to his sister in late 1918 and sent her a recent photo of all the men in the Battery at that time. He asked her to compare it to "the one I sent you before taken at Redford Barracks". He marked on the later photo which men had survived, there were not many. I also have a letter my Gt Uncle wrote and the envelope is postmarked "27th April 1917, Edinburgh", just to confuse things further as his payroll gives his field payments as starting when the 179th went to France on 12th May 1917.

So I`m still a bit confused, any further thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome.

[David Porter]

Forget about May and June 1916, as I explained earlier, they are just the dates that 257th Brigade RFA existed. Your Gt. Uncle was called up in October 1916 and looks to have been given the number 185554 in the regular sequence. This puts him in the block of numbers that No.1 Depot RFA, Newcastle were issuing at the time. On December 11, 1916 he is posted with other regular soldiers to 325th Brigade RFA at Chelmsford. This is a territorial unit in 65th (Lowland) Division and as such came under the renumbering of men that took place on December 31, 1916/January 1, 1917. This is where the new unique number of 651943 appears which ties him to one of two Lowland Brigades or their reserves (and we know now it is 325th Brigade RFA). He should have had his ID disc replaced with this number as it was fixed for as long as he stayed in the RH and RFA. Early in 1917 he was posted again to Redford to join 383rd Battery, 179th Brigade RFA and went overseas with them. That is why only his second number is on his medal card. See also http://www.1914-1918.net/renumbering.htm

Is there a number on his payroll records from October 1916?

[shutt]

Thanks very much for explaining that David, I do appreciate your help. I was getting quite confused for a while there !. Yes, there is a number on the statement of accounts that was sent to his parents, it is 3770 and the entries run from 17th October 1916 through to 1st May, 1918, the day he was killed.

[shutt]

The statement of accounts is interesting, the payments while he was in France are fairly regular but vary a lot, 3 shillings for the first few weeks each month and 7 for the last week generally, but a couple of occasions there are payments of £1.16 shillings and £2.18 shillings. Wonder why that is ?.