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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

TWO MULE GUN CARRIAGE - MGC


General Confusion

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Hi

My Great Uncle, Albert Goldsworthy, was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps No.98240 and was in charge of and drove a "two mule gun carriage" - this is the story he told and the story that has come down to me.

Does anybody out there have a picture of what such a thing would look like for the MGC?

Many thanks

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There were horse or mule drawn carriages for the Maxim gun but these preceded the MGC by some time. The (tripod mounted) Vickers machine gun was normally carried in a cart, on a wagon or lorry or by motor cycle combination and often man carried into their positions. a "two mule gun carriage" doesn't make sense in this context. Could he have meant some form of ammunition or equipment cart?

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Does anybody out there have a picture of what such a thing would look like for the MGC?

Many thanks

General Confusion,

Agree with centurion, I am not sure what a ' two mule gun carriage ' could be, as it relates to the Machine Gun Corps.

Mules/horses were used to carry a machine gun - see attached photo.

Also, attached is a photograph of a wheeled machine gun ( not MGC ), which was drawn/pulled by something, horses/mules ?

And finally, by coincidence, the American did actually have a ' Machine Gun Cart/Carriage ' pulled by a mule - photos attached.

There was the Machine Gun Cart pulled by a mule, and also an Ammunition Cart, and a Spare Gun Cart also drawn by mules.

Regards,

LF

post-63666-0-21328500-1383402932_thumb.j

post-63666-0-88965300-1383402948_thumb.j

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Yes a CART not a gun carriage


General Confusion,

Agree with centurion, I am not sure what a ' two mule gun carriage ' could be, as it relates to the Machine Gun Corps.

Mules/horses were used to carry a machine gun - see attached photo.

Also, attached is a photograph of a wheeled machine gun ( not MGC ), which was drawn/pulled by something, horses/mules ?

And finally, by coincidence, the American did actually have a ' Machine Gun Cart/Carriage ' pulled by a mule - photos attached.

There was the Machine Gun Cart pulled by a mule, and also an Ammunition Cart, and a Spare Gun Cart also drawn by mules.

Regards,

LF

The photo is of a Maxim gun carriage about the time of the South African war. These were phased out by about 1910 as they would simply not have survived for very long on the modern battlefield

I have a feeling that that isn't an MG on that horse or mule

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I have a feeling that that isn't an MG on that horse or mule

I think you are correct, the EB overprint is obscuring the photo, so here is a much better photo.

Regards,

LF

post-63666-0-37221500-1383421222_thumb.j

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I think those may be two different photos - either that or one very doctored photo

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I think those may be two different photos

Two completely different photographs, I gave up on the first one, and replaced it with a completely different photograph.

LF

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The nice thing about this Forum, is just how kind some members are.

After posting the photograph in post #6 of the Scottish soldiers, which I now know to be the 8th Royal Scots, member dycer kindly contacted me to tell me that he also has a copy of this photograph, which shows his uncle George, standing in the back row behind the machine gun.

The photograph was taken at the 8th Royal Scots 1910 TF Camp.

Member dycer also informed me that he had another photograph taken at a later date, later than 1910, which again shows his uncle George, and the complete rig of the machine gun cart, limber and the horse used to pull the cart, which I am sure will be of interest to OP General Confusion.

He has very kindly provided me with the photograph, and asked that I post it on this Thread, which I am delighted to do.

In the first photograph, his uncle George is the sixth soldier in the rear rank, as you look at the photograph, standing slightly back.

In the second photograph, his uncle George is standing to the left of the cart's wheel, has a moustache and appears to be a Lance Corporal.

The postcard is dated 23rd July, 1910 and his uncle George was at the Camp with his brother John, the handwritten message on the back of the postcard reads " am giting on fine and John is enjoying himself " signed George.

Sadly, it seems both men were killed in WW1. :poppy:

Here are both photographs, which give us great information on this particular type of machine gun cart, which I had not seen before.

Again, my sincere thanks to member dycer for his kindness in following up, and providing the additional photograph.

Regards,

LF

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post-63666-0-79937000-1383423558_thumb.j

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The wheeled carriage still appeared in use by Territorial Force MG Sections, at least in the manuals, at the start of the War, yet these wouldn't have been used with the Vickers and disappeared by the time the MGC came into existence - perhaps there are two timelines being confused.

The Limbered Wagon could be pulled by just two horses when required but not with a full ammunition load.

More packsaddlery photos at www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/transport-horse.htm and Limbered Wagon at www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/transport-limber.htm

This was the staple of the MGC with the only exception of a few GS Wagons or Water Carts but these wouldn't have been referred to as a gun cart.

Richard

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Re the first photo posted by LF. This is the pack-saddle equipment for the cavalry pattern .303 Hotchkiss. You can see the stock of the gun to the rear of the equpment. The horse has a bandolier round its neck to hold 10 round ammunition strips. The box for the main ammunition supply is in line with the girth, above the shovel.

Mike

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Re the first photo posted by LF. This is the pack-saddle equipment for the cavalry pattern .303 Hotchkiss. You can see the stock of the gun to the rear of the equpment. The horse has a bandolier round its neck to hold 10 round ammunition strips. The box for the main ammunition supply is in line with the girth, above the shovel.

Mike

Mike,

Thanks for all that additional information to go with the photograph.

Regards,

LF

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Gentlemen

Many many thanks. A vast and varied response all showing ingenious ways of how to transport a heavy machine gun and associated paraphernalia.

The photos do tend to show the horse / mule in the singular and apparently there were two mules although this is where the similarity between Great Uncle Albert and Sister Sara finished.

However on the second link kindly provided by Richard Fisher there is a photo which does appear to show a two muled contrivance.

Once again many thanks for your efforts

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The photo appears to show an Australian battalion's Maxim carriage just after the end of the South African (Boer) war long before the MGC was even thought of. As in this photo

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Firing a machine gun from a large wheeled carriage was all very well in colonial campaigns where the enemy was usually deficient in artillery but as the Prussian artillery had already ably demonstrated in the Franco Prussian war (and to a certain extent so had the Boers) guns mounted in this manner were sitting ducks when they were not. You need to distinguish between a gun carriage - from which a gun was fired - and a cart or wagon in which one might be carried along with its ammunition, tripod etc but dismounted and fired from the ground when in action.

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kindly provided by Richard Fisher there is a photo which does appear to show a two muled contrivance.

That photo from the Australian War Museum, which is also shown on Richard's excellent Vickers Machine Gun web site, which makes a great read, shows Australian troops with their machine gun carts and limbers drawn by two horses, so at least we know that MG combination existed during WW1.

Was the same equipment used by the British Army ? Hopefully, Richard or another member will know.

LF

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This is the pack-saddle equipment for the cavalry pattern .303 Hotchkiss.

Mike

Mike,

Another version of the Hotchkiss being transported by horse.

Regards,

LF

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That photo from the Australian War Museum, which is also shown on Richard's excellent Vickers Machine Gun web site, which makes a great read, shows Australian troops with their machine gun carts and limbers drawn by two horses, so at least we know that MG combination existed during WW1.

Was the same equipment used by the British Army ? Hopefully, Richard or another member will know.

LF

Once again a cart is not a machine gun carriage! All sorts of machine gun carts existed in WW1 - a machine gun is heavy!

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Once again a cart is not a machine gun carriage! All sorts of machine gun carts existed in WW1 - a machine gun is heavy!

What are you saying is the proper military term for the equipment shown in post # 16, are you saying they are ' Machine Gun Carriages ' or ' Machine Gun Carts ', as in your post # 5, you refer to them as ' Carts ', very confusing.

LF

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Two horses could be used instead of four for the Limbered Wagon but this was only really for those which weren't fully laden (i.e. without a full ammunition load). I do recall an account of two horses being used for a full load because of shortages and grumbles amongst the men but can't remember the reference.

As far as I am aware, the only official use of the term 'cart' for the Vickers was the American use, whereas the Lewis carried in a 'Cart'.

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There is a book called The Military Mule in the British Army and Indian Army , by Brian Nicolls , Philip Malins and Charles Macfetridge available from DP&G Publications

http://www.military-naval-history.co.uk/pages/artillery.htm (scroll down)

which may perhaps have information relating to the MGC. This book is also in the Imperial War Museums Catalogue

Cheers

Maureen

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

The AWM photo above is showing machine gunners using the limbered GS wagon with two horses. Depending on the load, terrain and speed, these can be used with 2, 4 or 6 horses or mules. On relatively level country side, staying on roads (in reasonable condition) and at a walk, 2 horses can happily pull a full load with either the ordinary or limbered GS wagons.

By comparison the RA limbered wagon which looks similar to the GS except that the brakes on the wagon act on the rear side of the wheels rather than the front and are fitted with No45 wheels rather than No200s to give better cross country performance.

I cannot see enough detail in the photo to identify the pattern of draught harness. It will either be GS1890 with a neck collar or RA1904 with a breast collar. My guess would be the latter.

The two Hotchkiss pack configurations are interesting, the first is the pack saddle configuration, with the handler and the horse both wearing the leather bandoliers for the short feed trays (9rds). The second is a riding saddle and is fitted with a leather box for one of the big feed trays (30rds). I call them a tray, it is a sheet metal strip with clips for the cartridges. The whole tray is fed through the gun, this is common to many variants of Hotchkiss gun.

Regards

Ross T

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The War establishment for a MG Coy in 1917 501/87 April 1917 shows that only two horses were authorized for the limbered Wagon at Coy HQ and each sections limbered wagon for ammunition carrying 18000rds.

Each sections limbered wagon carrying 4 guns tripods and 700rds of ammunition were authorized 4 per wagon.

In 1918 everything was upped to 4 horses per.

Joe Sweeney

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