Redcoats & Khaki

[Khaki]

As a youngster I remember my late uncle casually talking about when he was doing some ditch digging work at the local veterans home for old soldiers, and he mentioned quite casually how the old soldiers of the 1850/60's would wander over to pass the time of day with him.

Even as a kid, it seemed a little bit unbelievable, until such time as I could factor in that my uncle was born before the Great War. It interested me, as it still does, how there is a generational 'overlap' in world conflicts of the past. Indeed, even today I still see the occasional WW2 vet who also served in Korea and Vietnam.

The point of my thoughts is that at the time of the Great War, Crimean War veterans were still around in reasonable numbers Zulu war and other colonial war veterans were downright commonplace. Indeed the late 1890's saw the last of the Napoleonic Veterans.

If you ever are at a loose end I suggest having a look at some of the internet material on the last surviving veterans.

regards

khaki

[Andrew Upton]

Indeed the late 1890's saw the last of the Napoleonic Veterans.

There are a couple of somewhat disputed contenders that might put the date at least as late as 1905, possibly 1910:

1905 - John Vaughan, 104, supposedly a bugler boy at Waterloo:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50D13F73C5C1A728DDDAF0994DF405B858CF1D3

1910 - Mr J Mesdom, aged 106, supposedly a drummer boy at Waterloo:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/75303941

[Ron Clifton]

Frank Bourne (Colour-Sergeant in the 24th Foot at Rorke's Drift in 1879) died on 8 May 1945 - VE Day. The last two VC winners from Rorke's Drift both died in 1932.

Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien was a survivor of Isandhlwana.

Ron

[David Ridgus]

The last survivor of the Boer War, George Ives, didn't die until 1993. He had tried to re-enlist in 1914 but was turned down because of a heart murmur. Seems incredible that a Victorian soldier should live to read about the First Gulf War

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

khaki,

Here is an interesting photograph taken in June 1880, of the last survivors of the Battle of Waterloo in the Chelsea Hospital.

This photograph was taken just 34 years before the start of WW1, and only 23 year before that 1903 bayonet you just purchased, was made.

Regards,

LF

[Khaki]

What an interesting photograph LF, I didn't know of it's existence, again it's hard to imagine that I am looking into the faces of old men who probably saw the Duke of Wellington 'in the flesh'

many thanks

khaki

[centurion]

The last dinner for the survivors of the Charge of the Light Brigade was held in 1913 six veterans attended. The last survivor of the French Imperial Guard died in Paris in the early 1900s. He had been born in the 18th century and had fought in Russia and at Waterloo. He originally came from Poland. When I was about 5 I was taken to tea at the house of an old gentleman who could remember being a small boy in India during the Great Mutiny There were ex Zulu war men who actually served during WW1

[spof]

If you have a LOT of time on your hands, a few years ago some research was done on the fate of the Light Brigade men.

Part 1

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,286323.0.html

Part 2

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=291558.0

It makes pretty depressing reading in many cases.

[Guest]

There a few men who Charged at Balaklava who were still alive when the Great War started. The last surviving member of the Charge of the Light Brigade died in 1927. When Canon Lummis started in 1912 to compile his list of 11th Hussars (later expanded to all Regiments of the Light Brigade) who charged, he was assisted by W H Pennington who was at the charge. Pennington became a reasonably famous Shakespearean actor in the 1860s and was the model for Elizabeth Thompson (Lady Butler) in the iconic painting After the Charge. He died in 1923. He claimed that the "Charge" was never sounded and always described the action as an "Advance"....

Lummis was one time RQMS of the 11th Hussar 1913-1916.

Ref "Honour the Light Brigade" by William M Lummis and Kenneth G Wynn 1973.

[Steven Broomfield]

It seems very likely the Charge was never sounded, indeed, Martin, as Cardigan was finding it impossible to hold his men back, rather than trying to encourage them forward. The 17th Lancers and the 13th Light Dragoons in the front rank were at risk of losing all cohesion under Russian fire and it is extremely unlikely any call would have had much effect by the time Cardigan might have thought about a "Charge".

[centurion]

In the highly entertaining if not necessarily accurate novel Flashman at the Charge it's intiated by Harry Flashman's horse bolting for the Russian position when spooked by an enormous explosive breaking of wind by the scared ****less Flashman! Who of course is treated as a hero afterwards! Flashman appears in 1914 in a cameo piece in Mr American

[Guest]

Presumably Cardigan was still apoplectic that Lucan had moved the 17th Lancers into the front rank. The XIth Hussars (PAO) Officer's Mess used to have a Balaklava bugle (sic), carried in the charge, but presumably not used on that day. If I recall correctly a 17th Lancer was the orderly trumpeter to Brudenell on the day. The bugle that **ahem** allegedly sounded the charge was auctioned at Glendinning's in 1905 but withdrawn at £1,050, an astonishing figure at the time. Never really understood the bugle v trumpeter part.

Not sure if we have to keep on the Great War but if we do, XIth Hussars's Colonel at the outbreak of the War was one of the few regiments to retain a cap badge of Germanic origin and had the misfortune to have as its Colonel in Chief His Imperial and R H Frederick William Augustus, Ernest, Crown Prince of German Empire and Prussia KG and a Major with the unfortunate name of Von Essen.

MG

I also recently discovered an XIth Hussar made it to Gallipoli - Maj Claude Stuart Rome, Bde Major to the London Mtd Bde. I even have a photo of him with the Sharpshooters at Suvla bay.

[Ron Clifton]

It seems very likely the Charge was never sounded, indeed, Martin, as Cardigan was finding it impossible to hold his men back, rather than trying to encourage them forward. The 17th Lancers and the 13th Light Dragoons in the front rank were at risk of losing all cohesion under Russian fire and it is extremely unlikely any call would have had much effect by the time Cardigan might have thought about a "Charge".

But I seem to remember another thread referring to "the bugle that sounded the Charge" appearing on the Antiques Road Show. Old soldiers' stories, eh? Told to the Marines, presumably.

Ron

[Guest]

I feel a Flashman thread coming on.....

[Khaki]

I still feel that we are 'on topic', the relevance was to the probable interaction of GW soldiers with soldiers of earlier campaigns. I recall when I visited GW veterans at the same 'old soldiers' home there were large photographs on the games room wall of the early residents in their peculiar frock coats and pill box hats (with enormous beards) being visited by youthful GW recruits in crisp new uniforms.

khaki

ps; it's not uncommon when viewing interviews with GW soldiers relating that 'they' grew up reading about 'stirring deeds that won the empire', perhaps it's to be

expected that as young recruits they would have wanted to associate with the actual veterans whose deeds they had read about. (I know I did)

(k)

[clive_hughes]

Not quite WW1, but an Old Soldier...in the museum of the Royal Hospital Chelsea is a contemporary (1730) portrait of William Hiseland whose first action was the Civil War battle of Edgehill 1642, and who went on to serve in the Irish Wars of King William III and Marlborough's Flanders campaigns 1702-12. He retired 1713 after apparently 80 years service in the Army and died 1732 aged 112, being buried (I think) at Chelsea.

Clive

[Khaki]

Hi Clive,

Eighty years of service, !, imagine the long service chevrons or LS & GC medals, if they had had them.

khaki

[robigunner88]

Whilst not British, the last American Civil War veterans are reported to have died in the early 1950's.

[Stoppage Drill]

Whilst not British, the last American Civil War veterans are reported to have died in the early 1950's.

And widows of ACW vets went on being paid until 2008, and I do believe that one childs pension is still in issue. Certainly was earlier this year.

Are any British WW1 widows pensions still in issue ?

[spof]

On 02/11/2013 at 10:24, khaki said:

Hi Clive,

Eighty years of service, !, imagine the long service chevrons or LS & GC medals, if they had had them.

khaki

While not quite 80 years of service, this man served from 1866 - 1923 and clocked up a good few GC stripes

 

[auchonvillerssomme]

_{As an aside to this, I was looking at the ages of RAF personnel who served during WW1 and WW2 and found these men http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2435059/ http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2401820/ http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2430852/ http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2408780/ Imagine the lamp swinging in the mess with these men.}