Getting clear on unit designations: To what does 2/Cameronians refer?

[sneakyimp]

I'm reading a really enjoyable book, General Jack's Diary and in this book the author frequently refers to units like this:

* 2/West Yorkshire

* 1/Cameronians

* a battalion of the Tyneside Scottish

* 2/Scottish Rifles

etc.

I'm wondering what the significance is of the number that precedes the slash? Is this a battalion number? A company number?

And what, exactly, is a regiment? I am given to understand that all of the other terms denoting unit size (squad, section, platoon, company, battalion, brigade, division) may vary by nationality and branch of service and period as well. Regiment, on the other hand, seems to vary quite widely in size and may denote withing a single branch of service in a single nation anything from sub-battalion size (less than a thousand men) to a brigade (3-4000 men) and beyond.

Can someone clarify this for me?

[Guest]

The number is the battalion number, ie 2nd battalion, of the West Yorkshire Regiment. A Regiment, like the West Yorkshire, or Black Watch etc, can have any number of battalions. The Black Watch had 13. Some regular battalions ( Full time professional soldiers) Territorial Force Battalions, some Service battalions. . It's all in The Long Long Trail, and well worth spending much time there.

Cheers Mike

[Stoppage Drill]

The term "regiment" has three meanings, really.

It has one meaning for British Army Infantry, where it relates to a family wearing the same cap badge and containing any number of battalions. Therefore, in the British infantry the word "regiment" is a nebulous term, within which a "battalion" is the largest tactical formation of +/- 1000 men.

In the rest of the British Army the term relates to the tactical formation of similar size.

In other armies, a "regiment" is a tactical formation of (typically) two battalions, sometimes with supporting elements, so halfway between a battalion and a brigade, in British terms.

"Regiment", "Brigade", "Division" and "Corps" all have at least two different meanings in British Army usage.

[Ron Clifton]

1/Cameronians and 2/Scottish Rifles were in fact the first and second battalions of the same regiment, namely The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). For reasons of tradition and snobbery the two battalions, the former 26th and 90th Regiments of Foot, amalgamated in 1881, stuck to their old respective titles.

In the French and German armies, a regiment was a tactical formation normally consisting of three battalions. Two regiments made up a brigade, and two brigades (plus supporting troops) a division. Leter,their divisions were reduced to three regiments and the brigade level disappeared. In the British Army four battalions (reduced to three in 1918) normally from different regiments, made up a brigade and three brigades plus supporting troops made up a division.

The four battalions of the Tyneside Scottish were New Army (war-formed) battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers. They were in 34th Division and suffered heavily on 1 July 1916.

Ron

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi,

Referring to your first point:

* 2/West Yorkshire – 2^nd Battalion the West Yorkshire Regiment

* 1/Cameronians – 1^st Battalion Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

* 2/Scottish Rifles – 2^nd Battalion of the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

Taking the 2/Scottish Rifles, there are several ways that the battalion of a Regiment (the cap badge a soldier belongs to) can be abbreviated. "2/" was but one of the several. This method is used in the official history of the War.

Unlike the American or German sense of a Regiment, a British Regiment – in general terms – is the cap badge to which a soldier belongs. The Regiment had a Regimental Recruiting Area (usually a county or counties) and it had a Depot. Another important point is that the regiment was also seen as a ‘family’ and a soldier would usually stay with his chosen regiment (cap badge) for the duration of his engagement, and usually within the same battalion. The tradition and ethos established in a good regiment has a strong draw on potential recruits and is an inducement to the retention of soldiers. It also engenders a strong bond of association with, and loyalty to, a soldier's chosen regiment and battalion.

Roughly speaking, (with the exception of the first 25 Regiments of Foot), a Regiment was made by pairing two regular, single battalion, line regiments (there are some other anomalies: Middlesex, Fusiliers, Rifle Brigade, KRRC, and I think Worcesters). In the case of Cameronians, this was an amalgamation of the 26^th Cameronian Regiment and the 90^th Perthshire Light Infantry. Their name, post amalgamation, was the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).

In principal, one of the regular battalions of a Regiment would serve abroad in the Empire, whilst the other regular battalion would serve at home. In addition, the Regiment would have a Reserve battalion to supplement its regular battalions in time of war (in the Cameronians case, it had two). There would also be a number of Territorial Force (TF) Battalions within the Regiment: the TF being part time soldiers. The TF were recruited from the various villages, towns and cities within sectors of the Regiment's area.

1^st Battalion

2^nd Battalion

3^rd (Reserve) Battalion

4^th (Extra Reserve) Battalion

5^th Battalion (Territorial Force)

6^th Battalion (Territorial Force)

7^th Battalion (Territorial Force)

8^th Battalion (Territorial Force)

This situation would change after the War started where the Regiment would be made larger with the addition of more TF battalions and Service battalions, but that’s a different story.

As previously mentioned, the 1^st to the 8^th Battalions are all battalions of the Regiment. Though there may be small differences between battalions, they would generally adhere to the traditions, customs and dress of their parent regiment and sustain itself (in principle) through its Regimental Recruiting Area.

Unlike an American or German Regiment, the 1^st, 2^nd and 3^rd Battalions would rarely serve together. There was more of a possibility of this happening with TF Battalions.

1st Cameronians - served in 6th, 27th, 2nd, and 33rd Infantry Divisions.

2nd Scottish Rifles - served in 8th and 20th Infantry Divisions.

3rd Cameronians - served in the UK as it was not a 'service' battalion. Its function was to train recruits for the regular battalions and act as a Depot for wounded.

4th Cameronians - as above.

In late 1914 and early 1915 some TF battalions were paired with a regular battalion of the same Regiment to mentor them into the way of doing things in France and Flanders - though this was not meant to be a permanent arrangement.

I hope this helps,

Aye,

Tom McC

[sneakyimp]

Thanks so much for the responses! Good stuff here.

The number is the battalion number, ie 2nd battalion, of the West Yorkshire Regiment. A Regiment, like the West Yorkshire, or Black Watch etc, can have any number of battalions. The Black Watch had 13. Some regular battalions ( Full time professional soldiers) Territorial Force Battalions, some Service battalions. . It's all in The Long Long Trail, and well worth spending much time there.

Cheers Mike

I have seen the long, long trail and it does seem really good. I have yet to find a page specifically describing what a 'regiment' means. They do have one on battalions:

http://www.1914-1918.net/whatbatt.htm

and artillery brigade:

http://www.1914-1918.net/whatartbrig.htm

Tom McCluskey, your description looks especially helpful. Thanks, guys!

[sneakyimp]

Forgive me for reigniting this thread, but a friend recently uncovered his grandfather's attestation papers which refer to the "2/5 Staffs" and the South Staffordshire Regiment. I'm hoping someone might explain to me the meaning of "2/5" and perhaps point me to anywhere I might find their war diary (if any still exists).

 

 

[Tony N]

Hope this link helps regarding the war diaries http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_cr1=WO+95&_hb=tna&_q=2%2F5+battalion+south+staffordshire+regiment

 

Sorry I can't help with the meaning of 2/5 as opposed to 1/5 etc.

 

Tony

[brianmorris547]

Sneakyimp

It would be better to start a new thread about this soldier. See The Long Long Trail under Army, Infantry Regiments, South Staffordshire Regt and it will tell you about 2/5 Bn. (The local TF infantry Unit in Bolton for instance was 5th Loyal North Lancashire. In 1915 3 more battalions of the 5th were recruited in Bolton, they were known as 2/5, 3/5 and 4/5 LNL. The original 5th became known as 1/5 LNL). The WDs for 2/5 South Staffords and 176 Infantry Brigade are on Ancestry under The National Archives ref WO 95/3020 and 3021. Just put 3021/7 into the keywords on Ancestry for 2/5.

Brian

[ss002d6252]

2/5th means the '2nd Line' of the 5th Battalion.

At the outbreak of war there was just the 5th Battalion - shortly after mobilization (and the naming format did change a couple of times) the battalion was split in to two (later three) new battalions - the 1/5th was the 'front-line' battalion, the 2/5th would provide training and drafts to the 1/5th. Later the 3/5th was formed for most battalions and the 2/5th usually also then became a 'front-line' battalion.

Craig

[sneakyimp]

Thank you for the responses!

 

Craig's response seems pretty clear -- I had some inkling it was like this but was thinking 2/5 might refer to 5th line of 2nd battalion. But reflecting on how the Canadian Expeditionary Force was organized, I'm thinking "2nd Battalion" would likely refer to some 1st Division unit, e.g., the Royal Munster Fusiliers or something like that? I see numerous 2nd Bn units referred to here:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/1st-division/

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, sneakyimp said:

Thank you for the responses!

 

Craig's response seems pretty clear -- I had some inkling it was like this but was thinking 2/5 might refer to 5th line of 2nd battalion. But reflecting on how the Canadian Expeditionary Force was organized, I'm thinking "2nd Battalion" would likely refer to some 1st Division unit, e.g., the Royal Munster Fusiliers or something like that? I see numerous 2nd Bn units referred to here:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/1st-division/

The British Army worked regimentally- each regiment had it's 1st bn, 2nd bn etc.

 

Divisions were generally numbered sequentially.

 

Craig

[sneakyimp]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The British Army worked regimentally- each regiment had it's 1st bn, 2nd bn etc.

 

Divisions were generally numbered sequentially.

 

Craig

 

Yes I understand. I suppose I didn't make my point clear.  CEF First Division had battalions 1 through 18 or something like that and then CEF Second Division had bns 18 and up -- or something like that. There appears to be overlap. It's all very confusing:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-canadian-division/

[ss002d6252]

Just now, sneakyimp said:

 

Yes I understand. I suppose I didn't make my point clear.  CEF First Division had battalions 1 through 18 or something like that and then CEF Second Division had bns 18 and up -- or something like that. There appears to be overlap. It's all very confusing:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-canadian-division/

It appears that the 'original' 18th was disbanded quite quickly - presumably the number was re-used to main the numbering sequence so that might explain the confusion with that.
 

Quote

18th Bn, the Canadian Infantry. Disbanded September 1914

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/1st-canadian-division/

 

Craig

[Phil Wood]

10 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

2/5th means the '2nd Line' of the 5th Battalion.

At the outbreak of war there was just the 5th Battalion - shortly after mobilization (and the naming format did change a couple of times) the battalion was split in to two (later three) new battalions - the 1/5th was the 'front-line' battalion, the 2/5th would provide training and drafts to the 1/5th. Later the 3/5th was formed for most battalions and the 2/5th usually also then became a 'front-line' battalion.

Craig

 

2nd line battalions didn't become proper front line battalions until 1916 after the Military Service act introduced conscription. 

 

All the battalions that had 1st, 2nd & 3rd lines were from the Territorial Force; volunteer part-time soldiers who signed up to serve in defence of the homeland. The Army could not send them overseas without their agreement.

 

In 1914 it was immediately obvious that the British army was woefully small and would need every possible man at the front yesterday. So all Territorials were asked to volunteer for overseas service and to sign the Imperial Service Obligtion to indicate this.

 

Many signed and hence could be sent to France, but many refused to sign and couldn't be sent.  So they split each battalion along these lines - 1st Line (destined for the front line overseas), 2nd Line (home service, garrisioning the UK defences) and, in many cases, a 3rd Line (training and reserve) was also formed. The 1st line battalions were brought up to strength with new recruits etc and followed the Regulars to the front from late 1914 to mid 1915.  

 

The introduction of conscription meant that men could be asked again to volunteer for the front, but this time there was a proviso - if you don't volunteer we will discharge you and issue you with a conscription notice.  Needless to say most volunteered in order to stay in the battalion with their mates and so the 2nd Line battalions went to the fight.

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

Sneakyimp

Sorry for suggesting that you would be better to start a new thread so that more people might see it and offer help, I did not realise that you started it in 2013. 

Brian