SCModerator Posted 26 October , 2013 Share Posted 26 October , 2013 Hello folks: The attached photo of my grandfather just surfaced from a cousin and I'm wondering if any of you can add to what I've been able to figure out. My grandfather is seated at the right in the photo and has a stripe on his left sleeve I can't identify. Company? Award insignia? It also appears to me that all the guys in this picture are sergeants - my grandfather, the other man seated and the man standing have stripes - so I'm wondering if they're a particular company's or unit's sergeants all photographed together. The other thing about this photo that baffles me is the fresh faces. Family lore is that my grandfather earned sergeant's stripes in France, not before, as this photo seems to indicate. He's about 23 in the photo. I would suspect that war veterans would have a little more worn look on their faces or wouldn't have stopped and posed for this kind of photo at all. And do you know why some of the guys have tags on their covers and some do not? No date on the photo or photographer's mark so that doesn't help. (My grandfather's war record/history burned in that records fire you all know about.) And does anyone have any idea what the seated guy on the left is holding? I thought perhaps it was a book, but if it is, he's sure bending it hard. Thanks for any replies I might get. I figured certainly one of you would know. - Gregg . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 26 October , 2013 Share Posted 26 October , 2013 Nice photo! I suspect it is a war service chevron. It could, depending on the color, also possibly indicate a wound received. Have a gander at this: http:\\military-historians.org/publications/journal/samples/1920Chevrons.pdf What state was he from? I suspect the photo was post-war. Re: the tags on the caps, no clue. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCModerator Posted 26 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2013 He was from SW Pennsylvania. A tiny community called Broad Ford, near Connellsville. Thanks for the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 26 October , 2013 Share Posted 26 October , 2013 Have you checked with these folks yet? http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/military_records/3186/world_war_i/388672 Or, these folks? http://www.digitalarchives.state.pa.us/archive.asp?view=ArchiveIndexes&ArchiveID=6 -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCModerator Posted 26 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 26 October , 2013 Cool. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 October , 2013 Share Posted 27 October , 2013 Just to confirm what Daniel said The chevron on his lower sleeve is an overseas service chevron. I believe these were issues in increments of 6 months - so this would indicate 6 months overseas service. This clinches it as a postwar image for me (do you have the original? if so - - what is on the back? Is it a postcard back -- is there a photographer's stamp any indication it was taken overseas (ie does it say Carte Postale rather than postcard) but even were that not present I think the fact that they are wearing "overseas caps" (garrison caps) and puttees rather than gaiters is strongly indicative of that. In fact, the design of your grandfather's cap looks much more like those worn by the French Army (look at the overall shape and the way it is folded compare to the others) - So it may have been a french made one issued to the US (these are reasonably common) or it may be for a post war organization such as the VFW or even "40 and 8" another post war veterans (named in reference to the French railways wagon markings of "40 men or 8 horses") Postwar these organizations caps were often made in the french style. This might be the reason for the absence of the insignia. Can't work out what he is holding.... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCModerator Posted 27 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2013 Chris, thanks for the reply. The photo is a little larger than a postcard, and unfortunately, no markings. Didn't know the other, so I appreciate that. Gregg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 27 October , 2013 Share Posted 27 October , 2013 And do you know why some of the guys have tags on their covers and some do not? They're branch-of-service disks. Some men wore them, others didn't. They were identical to the collar disks. Your grandfather is wearing a French-pattern overseas cap, which was made locally in a shop somewhere from khaki material. It proves that the photo was taken either in France or after his return from overseas. Also, the fact that your grandfather wears his chevrons on only the right sleeve means the photo was taken in France. To save room on supply ships, rank insignia was worn on only the right sleeve for men overseas. One set of stripes could now decorate two men instead of one. The guy on the left is holding a socket wrench. Google-image "antique socket wrench" and you'll find similar devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 October , 2013 Share Posted 27 October , 2013 To save room on supply ships, rank insignia was worn on only the right sleeve for men overseas. One set of stripes could now decorate two men instead of one. I am aware of the practice of wearing rank insignia on one sleeve only - but "to save room on supply ships" is not an explanation I have heard -- is there anything to substantiate this explanation of the practice? Given the weight of men and materiel being shipped, and the practice of producing badges locally, this seems an extraordinary explanation to me. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 27 October , 2013 Share Posted 27 October , 2013 The "overseas Chevron" was brown in color, and was worn on the lower left Arm. It was earned by six months in combat. The "Wound Chevron" was the same type of insignia, but worn on the lower right Arm. I can't see three stripes on the guy on the left-- the insignia could be one stripe (with a different colored border around it), or two stripes. If one, he is a private first class, and if two, he is a corporal. Agree that the disks are branch of service insignia. Agree that the guy on the left is holding a socket wrench or something similar. This is definitely NOT pre-war or pre-deployment, and could have been taken during the war or soon after the end of it-- the combat chevron probably was not available during the war, so I would guess immediate post-war period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 27 October , 2013 Share Posted 27 October , 2013 I am aware of the practice of wearing rank insignia on one sleeve only - but "to save room on supply ships" is not an explanation I have heard -- is there anything to substantiate this explanation of the practice? Given the weight of men and materiel being shipped, and the practice of producing badges locally, this seems an extraordinary explanation to me. Chris Jonathan Gawne, Over There! The American Soldier in World War I. London and Mechanicsburg, PA: Greenhill Books, 1997. Photo caption, page 55: "Battalion Sergeant Major Sherman Ford of the 32nd Divison headquarters wears his rank insignia on only one sleeve, as per regulations. Even such small items as these were in short supply due to the scarcity of shipping space." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 October , 2013 Share Posted 27 October , 2013 Thanks, Tom W. New one on me. I shall have to see if I can track down those regs. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 28 October , 2013 Share Posted 28 October , 2013 Thanks, Tom W. New one on me. I shall have to see if I can track down those regs. Chris The AEF was--from what I gather--a pretty dysfunctional organization. The Lewis guns were taken away and replaced with Chauchats, the men were trained in modern fighting techniques but then ordered to do 1914-style charges, the marines had uniforms nearly identical in color to the German field gray, the force was racially segregated, the use of French 75mm field pieces as "infantry accompanying guns" was a catastrophe, the head of the Chemical Warfare Service had a genuinely pathological aversion to the use of flamethrowers, etc., etc. I can see some obstinate higher-up insisting that "proper" insignia had to be shipped from the States instead of manufactured in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 October , 2013 Share Posted 28 October , 2013 The AEF was--from what I gather--a pretty dysfunctional organization. The Lewis guns were taken away and replaced with Chauchats, the men were trained in modern fighting techniques but then ordered to do 1914-style charges, the marines had uniforms nearly identical in color to the German field gray, the force was racially segregated, the use of French 75mm field pieces as "infantry accompanying guns" was a catastrophe, the head of the Chemical Warfare Service had a genuinely pathological aversion to the use of flamethrowers, etc., etc. I can see some obstinate higher-up insisting that "proper" insignia had to be shipped from the States instead of manufactured in France. There certainly seem to have been very odd situations I agree, particularly in command/control as you suggest. In some areas however the whole operation seems to have been remarkably modern and quite effective - I have been reading quite a bit recently about the Anglo-French-US agreements and operations over pilot training and aircraft supply (inc supply or raw materials from the US) and this looks very like a modern multi-national training effort and alliance. In this area I suspect the US was so far behind that the only real hope of doing anything was to exchange the supply material (wood and cotton and eventually motors) and men, in exchange for the use of Anglo-French training expertise and aircraft re reading the quote you supplied I think there is an issue of causal order and that is why I was puzzled. I suspect that the situation was that insignia were in short supply and therefore wearing on one sleeve was authorized/required rather than wearing of insignia on one sleeve was authorized in order to save room on transport ships. Your final point above about insistence on "proper" insignia has a ring of truth about it too...! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCModerator Posted 28 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 October , 2013 Guys, thanks for the help. I've revised just about everything I thought about this photo from your comments. My cousin looked at the card again -- and it does have Carte Postale on the back of it and the number 84841. It's actually post card size, there was a misunderstanding about that. So we know for sure then that the photo was done in France before they went home -- anybody know what the number might mean? The guy on the left does indeed have three stripes -- I put a smaller size photo on the site here, I have a higher resolution I looked at (again). Socket wrench, huh? Gregg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 October , 2013 Share Posted 28 October , 2013 The number is almost certainly the photographer's negative number (sometimes these were marked on the image itself or included using a chalkboard) this was to allow reprints to be ordered. If he is carrying a socket wrench one might assume that they were engineers or a mechanical or motorized unit perhaps? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom W. Posted 28 October , 2013 Share Posted 28 October , 2013 Socket wrench, huh? Yup. Look at the part touching his thigh. The only thing it can be is a socket wrench. I thought the area I marked with a red arrow was a projection from the device, but it's just the edge of the jacket. It's a very simple kind of socket wrench, similar to the one pictured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCModerator Posted 28 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 28 October , 2013 If it is a socket wrench, then the story to probably have is why the shaft is bent. That may have been the reason he's hanging on to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 28 October , 2013 Share Posted 28 October , 2013 If it is a socket wrench, then the story to probably have is why the shaft is bent. That may have been the reason he's hanging on to it. Indeed! I would bet that was no easy feat. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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