Territorial renumbering in 1917. Have I got this right?

[John_Hartley]

I think I have the basics right - around the beginning of 1917, men with 4-digit service numbers were given 6-digit numbers from a block of numbers assigned to the battalion. I also believe that, from this time, all men (whether Territorial or not) retained their number if they transferred to another battalion of the same regiment (and were only renumbered if they changed regiments).

That leads me to a couple of assumptions on which your comments would be welcomed.

1) If I have a man listed on the medal index cards as only having a four digit number, then I assume he was not serving at the beginning of 1917 - and had either been discharged, or was dead. I'm excluding men with higher 4 digit numbers which may mean he was a regualr or a very early joiner of a service battalion.

2) If I have a man known to be serving with a Territorial battalion and has a five digit number, I assume that this man had transferred from a regular or service battalion, after the beginning of 1917, or had been assigned to the Territorial unit direct from training. Similarly, with a man with a 6 digit number applicable to a different Territorial battalion.

TIA

John

[Graham Stewart]

Wartime numbering is actually a bit more complicated than that. The renumbering of the Territorials in 1917 is pretty straight forward - four to six figure numbers, but prior to 1917 they were renumbered as they were transferred between T.F. Battalions in the same regiment. Again in most instances they were also renumbered if they were transferred into a New Army Battalion of the same regiment.

Generally Regulars and New Army men kept their numbers as they swapped between Regular/New Army battalions, except when transferring into Territorial Battalions in the same regiment in which they would be renumbered.

The five digit numbers we often come across being given to Territorials are in our experience being given to members of Supernumary Companies, who are former National Reservists. Initially these men had four figure numbers.

The defining factor was their Terms & Conditions on enlistment into the T.F..

On being transferred to another Regiment or Corps, renumbering would be automatic. However on being re-transferred back to your old unit, you were often given your old number back, probably in an effort to save complicating your Records.

[the-5th-kings]

I have seen men in Territorial Battalions killed on the somme in 1916 being renumbered from four to six figure numbers.

How does that work if the were not renumbered until early 1917 ?

Colin

[jay dubaya]

ACI 2198 deals with the new series of regimental numbers to be allotted to soldiers of the RHA, RFA and RGA (TF) dated 22nd November 1916

ACI 2243 Royal Engineers (TF) dated 1st December 1916

ACI 2414 Infantry (TF) dated 23rd December 1916

ACI 59 Number blocks alloted to new TF Infantry Battalions Dismounted Yeomanry dated 10th January 1917

ACI 380 RAMC (TF) dated 3rd March 1917

ACI 381 New numbers allotted to TF soldiers of Yeomanry Regiments belonging to the Corps of Lancers, Corps of Dragoons and Corps of Hussars dated 3rd March 1917

[ss002d6252]

How does that work if the were not renumbered until early 1917 ?

In many cases it was because the men were initially recorded as missing in action and therefore stayed on the army strength until sufficient time had passed to declare then officially dead rather than just missing.

Craig

[IRC Kevin]

There seems to be quite some variation in timings for issue of the 6 digit number and the practice of issuing a new 1-4 digit number on inter-battalion postings. The TF battalions of the King's Own issued the 4 digit number to men already on roll anything up to the end of March 17, whilst men arriving with these battalions from late Jan 17 onwards already had their 6 digit number. Likewise I have several instances of men in the same battalion with the same number, caused by being posted from the 1/4th to the 1/5th or vice versa and keeping their original TF number. In the King's Own I'm finding men coming from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and very occasionally the 12th Battalion to the TF battalions of 1/4th, 1/5th and 2/5th- all keeping their 4 digit numbers after renumbering.

[Graham Stewart]

There seems to be quite some variation in timings for issue of the 6 digit number and the practice of issuing a new 1-4 digit number on inter-battalion postings. The TF battalions of the King's Own issued the 5 digit number to men already on roll anything up to the end of March 17, whilst men arriving with these battalions from late Jan 17 onwards already had their 6 digit number. Likewise I have several instances of men in the same battalion with the same number, caused by being posted from the 1/4th to the 1/5th or vice versa and keeping their original TF number. In the King's Own I'm finding men coming from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and very occasionally the 12th Battalion to the TF battalions of 1/4th, 1/5th and 2/5th- all keeping their 4 digit numbers after renumbering.

It depends on the Regiment and the Officer i/c Records at your Depot. Generally a good officer carried out all of the necessary changes, of which there were many, as detailed in Army Orders or Army Council Instructions - a poor i/c Records basically creates a vast amount of confusion for those of us coming along in later years.

One of the ACI's which sticks in my mind is the May 1915 Instruction for the introduction of pre-fix numbers to get over the problem of duplicate numbering, which it would appear many Officers i/c Records ignored. Having mentioned this to someone many years ago, the person in question answered that it 'didn't happen in the unit he was studying'. Sometime later he came back to me and told me that he'd been looking at the records of T.F. individuals and discovered that the numbering on these records were indeed 'pre-fixed'.

In general very few units didn't follow the rules and if my memory serves me well, after the introduction of the new six figure T.F. numbers in 1917, you kept your number when transferring from Regular Army to T.F. and vice-versa, but I'll check this to confirm.

[Graham Stewart]

To confirm what I have said about the renumbering of T.F. Personnel on transfer between battalion within the same regiment, please find attached Para 146 from T.F. Regulations 1912 amended to July 1914 and which remained unchanged until 1917.

[Graham Stewart]

ACI 144 of the 18th May 1915 and the question of duplicate numbers and pre-fixing.

[IRC Kevin]

you kept your number when transferring from Regular Army to T.F. and vice-versa, but I'll check this to confirm.

The examples I've got for posted in and transferred in suggest this was the case. I have also edited my above post where I put '5' instead of '4', but I presumed you'd realised this was a typo as no comment about it. Just seen your new post while I was typing this- the T4 or T5 prefix seems hit and miss with these men, (all Preston office) though in fairness I have to say it's much more 'hit' than ;miss', though in a few cases I've had to find out where the man was living (in the case of pre-war enlistments) to work out which was his original battalion.

[Graham Stewart]

I have seen men in Territorial Battalions killed on the somme in 1916 being renumbered from four to six figure numbers.

How does that work if the were not renumbered until early 1917 ?

Colin

Hope this answers part of your question and if I remember correctly a time frame of six months came into effect later in the War.

[the-5th-kings]

Graham

This does answer my question thank you but can you also tell me the date of the memo is possible.

Thank you

Colin