Laird of Camster Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 Can anyone assist me with solving a curious case of a sole entitlement of the BWM? All the evidence points to the fact that this soldier died at home in the last quarter of 1916 and was from Dartford in Kent, but for reasons unknown was in the Welsh Regiment. There is no trace of him on the CWGC or SD listings. His medal was claimed in the 1920`s by one assumes as the N.O.K. My questions are thus… How did a soldier in the Welsh Regiment only quality for a BWM. This would suggest that he didn`t serve overseas (maybe I`m wrong there?). All the Welsh Regiments appear to have done so by 1916. It appears that his death was listed on the BMD for the last quarter of 1916 in Kent. Yet none of the Welsh Regiment battalions that I can find were stationed down there, most appear to have been in North Wales at one time or another, why was his death not recorded there? Unless he went home to die of course, from illness perhaps? But this only beggars the question why is he only entitled to a BWM and why is he not listed on the CWGC or SD? Has anyone got any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird of Camster Posted 23 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2013 (edited) http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ Deaths Dec 1916 Poole Walter 23 Woolwich 1d 1434 And the 1911 census, there appear to be only 3 Walter Poole`s with a NOK of M Poole listed.... Edited 23 October , 2013 by Laird of Camster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 If you are right about the date of death he had presumably been discharged from the army prior to his death and his service record was presumably in the 60% that were destroyed. I can't answer for the one medal, unless the BWM had previously been issued, but I can't see a card for it. The 3rd battalion of the regiment was home based throughout the war. I think you need someone to check the medal rolls, but if he was awarded the BWM it has to be possible that a variant on his name was used. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 One set of circumstances that might fit would be that when enlisted he was assigned to whatever unit was most in need (this was not unusual and has been discussed on the forum more times than I care to count) rather to one in his home area but before being sent to a theatre of war he was found to be already suffering from a disease that would make him unsuitable to serve (even something like flat feet might do it) and he was discharged, went home and died, not necessarily from the same disease (accidents do happen) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 I think discharge before death seems pretty certain to explain his absence from CWGC , but the Victory Medal was surely conditional on service in a theatre of operations, which should surely therefore include entitlement to the BWM. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 (edited) Could he have been sent to a Garrison Battalion or other unit in a non-operational area (eg, Gibraltar, India) then invalided back home? He got the BWM for service outside the UK, but wasn't in a Theatre of War so no Victory Medal. Another similar category which has turned up is those who were on board troop-carrying ships torpedoed in the Mediterranean before they made landfall in a Theatre of War. This has led to some curious medal issues such as BWM with TF War Medal but not Victory. Either he served in a non-operational unit abroad before coming home, or his journey was interrupted before he landed in a Theatre of War and he was then sent Home, my best guesses. Clive Ah! Centurion you got there just before me. Edited 23 October , 2013 by LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 October , 2013 Share Posted 23 October , 2013 Could he have been sent to a Garrison Battalion or other unit in a non-operational area (eg, Gibraltar, India) then invalided back home? He got the BWM for service outside the UK, but wasn't in a Theatre of War so no Victory Medal. Another similar category which has turned up is those who were on board troop-carrying ships torpedoed in the Mediterranean before they made landfall in a Theatre of War. This has led to some curious medal issues such as BWM with TF War Medal but not Victory. Either he served in a non-operational unit abroad before coming home, or his journey was interrupted before he landed in a Theatre of War and he was then sent Home, my best guesses. Clive Ah! Centurion you got there just before me. Yes but I got it the wrong way round which is why I deleted my post to think again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird of Camster Posted 24 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2013 Thanks guys for all your replies. I agree that the posting to whichever unit was in greatest need is a much debated topic. But I wasn’t sure whether things had got that bad that early in the war. I maybe wrong but I don’t think the Welsh Regiment were posted to India or Gibraltar during the war. I think the 1st btn was in India when the war started but then came to France, in late 1914. I suppose if his papers are `lost` I may never know the truth, especially if we consider the sinking before arrival aspect, that certainly is an interesting topic that I’d like to know more about, but fear I’m going off topic. I may try the local press to see if his passing was news worthy as it were. Also his death certificate is an option. Re the no longer fit for service possibility (flat feet,etc). I have a BWM to a soldier in the RWF who died at home as a result of his war service, his reason for discharge was given as `weakling, when in France`!! No seriously that was the reason given on his papers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krwells1968 Posted 10 January , 2014 Share Posted 10 January , 2014 I am a bit late replying to this, but I hope this might help...... The MIC is summary of the recipient's entitlement, which is confirmed on the individual medla rolls. The vast majority of MICs show entitlement to a BWM and VM pair at least. These two medals are generally issued from the same roll and it will have a 'B' as the end of the roll reference number. You will note from the MIC that your man's medal was issued from roll J/1/104A. The 'A' indicates that it comes from the roll of recipients only entitled to the BWM, but not the VM. In this case your man is listed on page 35. I have seen lots of MICs, but not that many medal rolls. As far as I can tell the number of recipients listed per page of the roll could be as many 10 per page. If your man is on page 35 then I think we are probably safe to say there were probably at least 300 single entitlement BWMs to the Welsh Regiment. I have a sole entitlement BWM to the Welsh Regiment in my collection for a man whose service papers do survive. This shows that he was in a draft from the 3rb Bn of the Welsh Regiment that reached Bombay on 4 Dec 1917 and was posted to the "5th Training Bn" at Kirkee on the same day. His initial service overseas was travelling on a boat to India. At this point in time he was still on the strength of the Welsh Regiment and therefore they are named as the unit on his (sole entitlement) BWM. Whilst I have no evidence for this, it is certainly possible that you man was part of a similar draft. I would also note that there is a Walter Poole that was born about 1882 and died Mar 1917 in Gloucester, Gloucestershire, which is next door to Wales. Hope this helps, Kenneth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird of Camster Posted 10 January , 2014 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2014 Many thanks indeed for this information Ken. It`s certainly food for thought. I wonder can we firm up the evidence a bit for the India draft by comparing their Regimental numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krwells1968 Posted 10 January , 2014 Share Posted 10 January , 2014 My chap is 61521 Pte Edward Paine. Enlisted 11 Dec 1915, but did not start serving until 3 Jul 1917. I had a little dig through the MIC for men with similar numbers to your man. I did find Pte Ellis Evans, 58697 Welsh Regiment, later 213369 Rifle Brigade. His sole entitlement was the BWM as per Paine and Poole. Unfortunately his service do not survive either.... Kenneth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 10 January , 2014 Share Posted 10 January , 2014 Kenneth, Ellis Evans' number 213369 in the Rifle Brigade is part of a block issued to the 18th to 24th Battalions (TF), created about January 1917 mainly from reserve unit Territorials from all over the country - one battalion per Command District (eg., 19th was the "Western" and 22nd was the "Wessex and Welsh" battalion). They were all sent overseas on Garrison duty, and three of the battalions only served in India (the others went to places such as Egypt and Salonika, and so earned the BWM/Victory pair). Unless the men had previous or subsequent qualifying service in a Theatre of War, those units would only get the BWM. However, I can't account for his Welsh Regt. number, which has to predate the scenario above; but the medal roll entry might give more clues as to his first qualifying unit. Clive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 10 January , 2014 Share Posted 10 January , 2014 Evans is among a whole batch of Welsh Regiment that were placed in the Rifle Brigade, in these cases most went to the 23rd Rifle Brigade in India. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krwells1968 Posted 11 January , 2014 Share Posted 11 January , 2014 Thanks Clive. Very interesting stuff. I had not picked up on the link to the Command District before. I see from the LLT that they went abroad in 1916. Ellis Evans' MIC is "standard". His medal is issued from a Rifle Brigade roll, but I am certain it would have been named to the first unit listed on the MIC: the Welsh Regiment. Given this, I would guess Ellis Evans went abroad as a reinforcement and was only posted to the Rifle Brigade once he reached India (seems the most likely place). Kenneth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krwells1968 Posted 11 January , 2014 Share Posted 11 January , 2014 Just seen Andy's post after posting mine. Interesting to see William Henry Underwood has a number fairly close to Walter Poole. Also interesting to see that they were all posted on the same day 8-6-1917 even though they arrived in India on different days. I think we will need his entry on the BWM roll to solve the riddle of Walter Poole. Kenneth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 11 January , 2014 Share Posted 11 January , 2014 Hi Kenneth, The Territorial battalions of the Rifle Brigade are on London Record Office medal rolls, not Rifle Brigade as the London Territorials managed these battalions, they had very little to do with The Rifle Brigade at all. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krwells1968 Posted 11 January , 2014 Share Posted 11 January , 2014 Andy, Took me a moment or two to figure it out, but it is a good point. In more detail for my benefit.... Medals were issued by a Record Office. This is indicated by the first characters of the medal roll. Ellis Evans' medals were issued from medal roll TP-105-A-3. As you have pointed out, TP is the code for the London Record Office. The London Record Office also handled the London Regiment, Royal Defence Corps, HAC and Royal Fusiliers. Medals to the "proper" Rifle Brigade were issued from the Winchester Record Office using roll M-102-A (single entitlement BWMs) or M-102-B (entitled to BWM/VM pairs). (The other unit served by the Winchester Record Office was the KRRC, whose rolls were M-101-A and M-101-B.) My info comes from Howard Williamson's "The Great War Medal Collectors Companion". Whilst has a list of record office roll codes, he does not list TP-105. He uses a B suffix for every roll and I can not see a mention of the A suffix for single entitlements. Coming back to Walter Poole, his medal was issued from J-1-104-A, which is the Welsh Regiment roll administered from the Shrewsbury Record Office (code J). Thanks, Kenneth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorksburnett Posted 28 January , 2014 Share Posted 28 January , 2014 I'm butting in on this topic rather late in the day but I have a query which is relevant and hope I haven't missed the boat. Pte. William ROBBINS, No.459320 RAMC, apparently served with 2/2nd Wessex Field Ambulance from November 1914 up to his death at Colliton House V.A.D. Hospital in Dorchester on 17 Mar 1918. He has a CWGC citation and an entry in "Soldiers Died" (SD) but I can't find a MIC for him. The SD entry gives Theatre of War: Home, Type of Casualty: Died, Death Location: Home. This suggests that Pte. ROBBINS did not see active service overseas but served throughout his war 'at home'. However, would he not have the single entitlement to the British War Medal and should there be a MIC for him? Penzance Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 28 January , 2014 Share Posted 28 January , 2014 However, would he not have the single entitlement to the British War Medal and should there be a MIC for him? Not if he remained on home service only - he didn't serve overseas or in a war zone. An exception to this was the men who were involved with the gun battery's which were bombarded during the raid on Hartlepool who were given the BWM. Craig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorksburnett Posted 28 January , 2014 Share Posted 28 January , 2014 Thanks Craig Although the soldier in question died in Dorchester, Dorset his body was returned home to Penzance, Cornwall for burial. His grave is not marked with a standard CWG monument but he is commemorated on a private monument - both his parents are buried with him. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krwells1968 Posted 28 January , 2014 Share Posted 28 January , 2014 Craig's answer is spot on. Apart from the Hartlepool bombardment, there is a another set of soldiers who qualified for the BWM in the UK. If a soldier lived abroad in, say, Argentina and returned to the UK to serve with the British Army then they would qualify for the BWM even if they never left the UK when serving. Generally the BWM required service outside you country of residence. (However, the final criteria was left to the individual Dominions (not sure if that is the right title). South Africa awarded the BWM for service at home in South Africa and India awarded it to members of the IDF for service in India.) Kenneth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 29 January , 2014 Share Posted 29 January , 2014 Some home service RFC/RAF men also apparently qualified Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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