Help needed from Loyal North Lancs & MGC experts

[Justinth]

Dear All

I am investigating the transfer of a 4th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment Soldier, Lance Corporal Norman Harry Shutt 127459 (his LNLR number is not included on his medal card). Thanks to forum pal IPT pointing me in the direction of 127462 J Murgatroyd (also ex-LNLR regiment) I know that the transfer must have taken place on or near to the 10th November 1917.

I was hoping that either (or both) a Loyal North Lances/MGC experts might have the relevant war diaries for 1/4th or 2/4th LNLR for October/November 1917 (hopefully mentioning the transfer of some men to the MGC) or an MGC expert might know of a relevant entry or transfer in this time into the MGC from the LNLR.

Here is what I know so far about Norman Harry Shutt:

I have been given a single page discharge record for Lance Corporal Norman Harry Shutt to investigate.

The record includes information that cannot be found in his medical card or SWB record such as his previous service in the 4th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment (no dates are given and no previous service number for his time in the LNLR). He also had a wound stripe and two blue chevrons (2 years) of overseas service. Norman Shutt enlisted at Preston.

His Army service began on 30th August 1915 (he enlisted at Preston) and on or around 10th November 1917 he transferred to the Machine Gun Corps. His service no in the Machine Gun Corps was 127459 and his service record does not survive. He was discharged from the MGC on 29th August 1918.

Also looked in The war history of the 1st/4th Battalion, the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, now the Loyal Regiment (North Lancashire), 1914-1918 (1921)

http://archive.org/d...oryof1st400grea

at the appendix of casualties, Norman Shutt not mentioned, which shows that if he received his wound before joining the MGC that it wasn't with the 1/4th LNL (although still possible in the 1/4 if wound afterwards when in the MGC).

Nothing about transfer of men in October/November 1917 to the Machine Gun Corp in Colonel H. C. Wylly's Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 1914-1919.

Any help given will be greatly appreciated.

Best

Justin

[Pierce09]

i know a LNLR guy who may be able to help, i'll just scour through my previous posts to see if i can locate is username!!

[kenf48]

Are we going to follow this thread here, or on your previous one posted yesterday?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201348&hl=

Ken

[Justinth]

Are we going to follow this thread here, or on your previous one posted yesterday?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201348&hl=

Ken

Hi Ken

Thanks again for your advice on the other thread which is now superceded by this one:

Just to add we now know that:

Shutt was born in 1898 and so as you say would not have been 18 until sometime in 1916 (I do not have his precise date of birth, but Findmypast has the birth in the last quarter of 1916) which would certainly fit in with home service well into 1916 (3/4 as you say) but does not rule out his serving with either the 1/4 LNLR or 2/4 LNLR in 1917.

It says sickness as the cause of discharge on the SWB record but on the discharge record it notes 'being surplus to military requirements having suffered impairment since entry into service'.

1) Now just need if it is possible to identify Machine Gun Corps (at present unknown) and Loyal North Lancashire Units (either 1/4, 2/4 or 3/4) he served with.

2) Would also love to see the date of his listing on either a 1917 or 1918 casualty list.

3) The question also remains whether service before June 1919 and Versailles was added in as active service, considering that the war was not officially over between Britain and Germany until June 1919.

Will also be looking in WO237/7 for the Army Council Instruction 596/1917. If as Kenf48 suggested about combing home service units for volunteers would give an answer to Shutt's service in 1917.

Best

Justin

Edited 22 October , 2013 by justin

[Justinth]

Just to add says on discharge papers served 3 years and 114 days

[kenf48]

Shutt was born in 1898 and so as you say would not have been 18 until sometime in 1916 (I do not have his precise date of birth, but Findmypast has the birth in the last quarter of 1916) which would certainly fit in with home service well into 1916 (3/4 as you say) but does not rule out his serving with either the 1/4 LNLR or 2/4 LNLR in 1917.

Service overseas with the 1/4 LNLR (to France 1915) and 2/4 LNLR (to France 1917) is ruled out by the medal index card as the LNLR is not mentioned.

If you find his medals they should be inscribed to the MGC which will confirm it was the first unit he went overseas with, if they are inscribed to the LNLR then I'll agree with you.

Technically, and there were exceptions and the age was reduced after March 1918, soldiers were not eligible for overseas service until aged 19. His total service would include any time he spent in the Army Reserve after enlistment and prior to mobilisation.

Ken

[Pierce09]

Even better, he gave me this link which contains the history of the 4th Btn LNLR.

http://www.loyalregiment.com/

if you need anything further or any other help, PM me anytime

Rhys

[Justinth]

Ken

I was slightly chronologically challenged in working this out! Again as Ken says Norman Shutt wouldn't have been 19 until sometime in the last quarter of 1917 when he joined the Machine Gun Corp. This would also fit with the failure to mention his 4th LNLR service on the medal cards as it wasn't overseas. This must mean that his service was entirely with the home based 3/4 LNLR until he joined the Machine Gun Corps as you say.

Using an online calculator to work out the number of days between 30/08/1915 when he enlisted (when he was just 16) and his discharge on the 29/08/1919 equals roughly 4 years (1916 was a leap year). As he served just 3 years and 114 days does this mean that he was technically mobilised shortly before his 18th birthday (which was somewhere between October to December 1916)?

Thanks Rhys for the link to the LNLR history website, which I am just off to explore.

This leaves the remaining questions:

1) Which unit of the MGC did Norman Shutt join?

2) When and how in 1918 was he wounded?

Edited 22 October , 2013 by justin

[Justinth]

Today at the National Archives I found the press-gang style order (although they didn't get them drunk and kidnap them!) that allowed the Machine Gun Corp to go and draft Shutt, Murgatroyd and others from the 3/4th Loyal North Lancashires into the Machine Gun Corp in Army Council Instruction 596/1917:

'596. Transfer of Infantry Recruits to the Machine Gun Corps.

1. A.C.I. 1545 of 1916 is cancelled, and the returns therein called for will no longer be rendered.

2. Two officers of the M.G.C. will be detailed to inspect Reserve Infantry Battalions in Commands with a view to selecting sufficient men of the necessary standard required to complete the establishment of the M.G.C. (Infantry).

3. One officer will inspect the men in Reserve Infantry Battalions in the Scottish, Northern and Western Commands, and the other officer will inspect those of the Eastern and Southern Commands and London District.

4. The inspecting officers will inform the O.C. the Reserve Infantry Battalion of the number of men selected by him, and the O.C. the unit will then immediately grant the men their 4 days' Expeditionary Force leave.

5. The O.C. the Reserve Infantry Battalion will inform the G.O.C.-in-C. in whose Command the battalion is stationed by telegram of the number of men selected by the inspecting officer.

6. The G.O.C.-in-C. the Command will inform "Forcedly (A.G. 9) London" by telegram at 5 p.m. every Saturday night of the number of men selected by the inspecting officer during the previous week when further instructions will be issued regarding the number of men to be sent to the M.G.C.

7. The men ordered to be sent to Grantham will be dealt with under the conditions laid down in A.C.I. 2098 of 1916, except that para. 1 will not apply, as the men will have already received their 4 days' leave.'

According to the very short section on the 3/4th in the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment 1914-1919 by Colonel H. C. Wylly (pages 200 to 201) 'In the spring of 1916 the unit...[3/4]...was again moved, this time to a hutment camp at Park Hall Camp, Oswestry, which contained the Third Line units of all the battalions of the West Lancashire Division...Of the 4th Reserve Battalion...By this time...[August 1916]...the unit had increased in strength from a beginning of six officers and some 200 non-commissioned officers and men to about 120 officers and 2,000 other ranks.'

Assuming that the unit remained something approaching the size in November 1917, the visiting M.G.C. officer would have had a large number of soldiers from which to chose!

Do any forum pals have any information on why the M.G.C. needed to take this approach, was it the newness of the unit, the danger faced by the M.G.C. from enemy artillery or just its lack of a presence throughout the country? Also despite the order how much choice would the men have been given in reality?

[kenf48]

I don't know why the MGC adopted this approach, though it could be that there were few direct entrants at that time, very interesting though thank you for posting.

( know it's cheeky but I'll ask anyway, did you have a chance to look at ACI 2098/1916?)

Ken

[Justinth]

I don't know why the MGC adopted this approach, though it could be that there were few direct entrants at that time, very interesting though thank you for posting.

( know it's cheeky but I'll ask anyway, did you have a chance to look at ACI 2098/1916?)

Ken

Hi Ken

Unfortunately it didn't occur to me at the time (end of a productive day and a long drive home), but if it does not turn up via another forum pal I will happily do so next time I am at either the NA or the British Library (likely to be at the British Library in a few weeks time). Also quite interested in the returns mentioned in A.C.I. 1545 of 1916.

Best

Justin

[Justinth]

Just been going through a list of service numbers near to Norman Shutt 127459 (only discharge doc, medal cards and entry on victory BWM & Victory roll medal surviving) and James Murgatroyd 127462 (service records survive) to see if any other service records survive and found Herbert Hughes 127463, also from the same draft into the MGC from the Loyal North Lancashires.

Can now confirm comparing Murgatroyd's and Hughes's records that:

1) The date that Shutt's draft from the 3/4 LNLR joined the Machine Gun Corps was definitely 10/11/1917

2) That they then proceeded to join what is either an S or 5, more likely S, would this be 'School' and training at Grantham?

3) Embarked from Folkestone on 14/1/1918, disembarked at Boulogne on the same day and by the 15th were at the MGC base depot at Camiers near Etaples.

4) From there it looks like the ex-LNLR men were dispersed to different Battalions, 50(or 59) in Murgatroyd's case (26.2.1918) and 14th Battalion (21.2.1918) in the case of Hughes, meaning that there was no single destination for these men from which we can deduce the battalion which Shutt would have been sent to.

These leaves me with two questions (the chevron question has been resolved here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201500&hl= ):

1) Where can I find a summary of the kind of training that Shutt, Murgatroyd and Hughes would have received at Grantham?

2) Does anyone have a copy of the absent voters list for Preston Lancashire (to see if it includes details of Shutt's battalion, granted that both Hughes and Murgatroyd changed MGC Battalions during their time with the Corps)?

[kenf48]

Q1 There are accounts of Grantham in the literature but those I've read don't go into much detail. It seems it was pretty awful,mud and wooden huts, for example George Coppard was sent to Barrowby Camp after being wounded in October 1916 and as an 'old sweat' rants about the 'bunch of fire-eating instructors from the Guards' who he claimed had seen no action, after complaining about the spit and polish and fatigues etc he says, 'There was no escape. Fitness was literally lashed into us', he was mighty glad to 'get away from that bunch of blowhards at Barrowby', to Folkestone and then on to Camiers for more of the same including 'passing through the gas hut a few times'. You may recall earlier this year Channel 4 Time Team did a programme on Belton Camp also at Grantham which showed the ranges. George incidentally describes initial training in France when he transferred to the MGC in February, this included drills on the ranges; stripping the guns (blindfold) until their hands bled; drills to deal with stoppages and practice for hours day after day.

There may of course be more detailed accounts.

Q2 The AVL won't help you as he was not eligible to vote (21 in 1918)

'S' is as you say almost certainly School, I thought it interesting Hughes was also 17yrs 11 months on enlistment so just spent a couple of months on the Reserve before mobilisation, also that both he an Murgatroyd re-enlisted, wonder if your man did too?

Ken

[Justinth]

Q1 There are accounts of Grantham in the literature but those I've read don't go into much detail. It seems it was pretty awful,mud and wooden huts, for example George Coppard was sent to Barrowby Camp after being wounded in October 1916 and as an 'old sweat' rants about the 'bunch of fire-eating instructors from the Guards' who he claimed had seen no action, after complaining about the spit and polish and fatigues etc he says, 'There was no escape. Fitness was literally lashed into us', he was mighty glad to 'get away from that bunch of blowhards at Barrowby', to Folkestone and then on to Camiers for more of the same including 'passing through the gas hut a few times'. You may recall earlier this year Channel 4 Time Team did a programme on Belton Camp also at Grantham which showed the ranges. George incidentally describes initial training in France when he transferred to the MGC in February, this included drills on the ranges; stripping the guns (blindfold) until their hands bled; drills to deal with stoppages and practice for hours day after day.

There may of course be more detailed accounts.

Q2 The AVL won't help you as he was not eligible to vote (21 in 1918)

'S' is as you say almost certainly School, I thought it interesting Hughes was also 17yrs 11 months on enlistment so just spent a couple of months on the Reserve before mobilisation, also that both he an Murgatroyd re-enlisted, wonder if your man did too?

Ken

Thanks again Ken for your interest and wisdom on this topic.

I had forgotten about the issue of Shutt's age, as he would not been 21 until after he left the army. Coppard has been on my list to read for a long time now and this is a good incentive to read it. I have ordered Graham Seton Hutchinson's Machine Guns: Their History and Tactical Employment (Being Also a History of the Machine Gun Corps, 1916-1922) for a general history of the corps.

Aside from a mention in a local newspaper (which I could probably access on microfilm at the British Library) the best bet now seems to be looking at Casualty lists for 1918-1919, either through trawling through the Times or for looking at the 1918 records on the Genealogist, unfortunately it is unclear as to whether they are available on a pay for view basis (I find the information on what available for each level of subscription rather vague and I cannot afford another yearly subscription). Although it is unlikely to say what his specific MGC unit was it would at least identify the front he was injured on and distinguish whether it was a wound or gas etc. It is an intriguing possibility that he could have served in Russia as did his two fellow ex-Loyal Lancashires, although both seem to have re-enlisted in 1919 to do so.

Just to add on the issue of Hughes's age, did you see the essays and mathematical test papers included in his file?

Best

Justin

Edited 25 October , 2013 by justin

[kenf48]

Justin,

I knew I'd seen the lecture notes somewhere and a lot more besides if you go to the Home page

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/manual-machineguntraining.htm

I really ought to have a better bookmark system, as you say I've not seen test papers such as those in Hughes file, it never ceases to amaze the odd things that turn up in the records, but of course I won't be able to remember it when/if I need to as with the above! They were dated 1921, looks like he was using his time in India wisely.

Ken

[PPCLI]

Q2 The AVL won't help you as he was not eligible to vote (21 in 1918)

I wouldn't give up on the AVL search. There are a few AVL threads on the forum and this one gives some direct quotes (Dave, post 3 and Duncan, post 5) which, in summary, state that all serving male military personnel were entitled to be registered as a parliamentary elector so long as they had attained the age of 19 years by 15th April 1918.

Stuart

[Justinth]

Justin,

I knew I'd seen the lecture notes somewhere and a lot more besides if you go to the Home page

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/manual-machineguntraining.htm

I really ought to have a better bookmark system, as you say I've not seen test papers such as those in Hughes file, it never ceases to amaze the odd things that turn up in the records, but of course I won't be able to remember it when/if I need to as with the above! They were dated 1921, looks like he was using his time in India wisely.

Ken

Thanks Ken, I have just seen this post and looked at the link, what a brilliant resource! I will look forward to reading and digesting these manuals to give more flesh to the kind of training that Shutt and the rest of his draft would have gone through.

Just got to the adoption of the Maxim Gun by the British Army in Seton Hutchinson's History of the Machine Gun. Written in an idiosyncratic but interesting way, he constantly strives to link the past of the machine gun to experience in the First World War. A bit too dismissive of artillery though.

Best

Justin

[Justinth]

I wouldn't give up on the AVL search. There are a few AVL threads on the forum and this one gives some direct quotes (Dave, post 3 and Duncan, post 5) which, in summary, state that all serving male military personnel were entitled to be registered as a parliamentary elector so long as they had attained the age of 19 years by 15th April 1918.

Stuart

Thank you Stuart for this, as ever I have learnt something from members of the forum (very important when thinking about mention of younger soldiers in AV lists - potentially a very large number of individuals), I will now get in touch with Preston Library and see if I can get a search done for Shutt's name in the AVL.

Best wishes

Justin

[Justinth]

With many thanks to the Archivist at the Lancashire Record Office we now know that Norman Harry Shutt does not feature in the Preston 1919 Absent Voters list. Now trying to track down whether an AVL exists for the Kirkham/Fylde district (his last address in the 1911 Census).

Best

Justin

[Justinth]

Jeremy Gibson Electoral Registers 1832-1948; and Burgess Rolls has no surviving electoral registers for Fylde electoral district before before 1921 (in British Library), 1934 in Lancashire Record Office. So unfortunately no AVL for Fylde, although there is possibility that Norman Harry Shutt lived elsewhere in Lancashire by 1918/1919 as he is only listed as a visitor in the 1911 Census in Fylde and the whereabouts of his mother cannot be found in the 1911 Census (she doesn't appear to have died until the 1950s so must have been somewhere) we cannot fix his address (he was 13 in April 1911).