Help identifying regimental cap badge? - Private Frederick John Willia

[jackwright]

Back in 2009, some forum members kindly provided me with some useful information to enable further follow-up of my own grandfather's WW1 war service.

I am now trying to find out anything I can about the WW1 service of my wife's grandfather, Frederick John Williams of Gravesend, Kent and am very hopeful that forum members might be able to help me again.

Until recently, the only clue that I had that Frederick John had served in WW1 was an old family photo showing him in uniform (see attached photo). Frederick is the older chap with the moustache, second from the right in the group of 4. Unfortunately we had no supporting information from the family about whether Frederick served in WW1 or not (or even before WW1) and my searches of the ancestry and national archives service and medal data records had also turned up a blank so far.

Then, a number of weeks back I found the army service record for Frederick's eldest son who served with the 2nd battalion, Royal West Kent Regiment and was unfortunately killed duing the Mesopotamia campaign in November, 1916. In this service document it records that the personal property of the deceased is to be returned to his father, Private F J Williams NO: 22558 at the known family home in Gravesend. So, this, I think gives me pretty conclusive proof that Frederick John was a serving soldier by this point. However, unfortunately my latest searches using this army number and name combination are also turning up a blank.

Frederick was born in 1864 so he would already have been 50 years old when the war started in 1914. I have therefore assumed that conscription would not have applied to him even during the later war years and that he may even have lied about his age to join up?

Given all the above, the key point that I am hoping forum members can help me with is in identifying Frederick's regiment from the cap badge he is wearing in the photo. Although the photo quality is poor, I am hopeful that the badge is sufficiently distinctive that some of the expert members on this forum might be able to suggest where I can next concentrate my follow-up around a particular regiment's records? Given Frederick's home location, I have assumed a more local regiment and given his age I have assumed that home and not overseas service would have been more likely. However, all this is pure guess work and I'd be very grateful to any forum members who can make any other suggestions or provide any clues.

my thanks jack wright

[ralphjd]

Presuming his son was Frederick Charles Williams died of malaria 1916, I read the document as his father was serving in 112 Coy Royal Defence Corps no 22555 L/Cpl, but the badge is not that of the RDC, that was a GV cipher surmounted by a crown within a circle. Ralph.

[Stoppage Drill]

What are those cuff stripes the policeman is sporting ? Did policemen wear wound stripes ?

[Khaki]

Certainly look like wound stripes, don't they, isn't he a 'special constable' ?

khaki

[daggers]

Metropolitan Police wore a striped armband above the left cuff, as shown here, when on duty, for many years. Possibly stopped post 1945?

D

[Andrew Upton]

Stoppage Drill - "What are those cuff stripes the policeman is sporting ? Did policemen wear wound stripes ?"

Certainly look like wound stripes, don't they, isn't he a 'special constable' ?

khaki

Metropolitan Police wore a striped armband above the left cuff, as shown here, when on duty, for many years. Possibly stopped post 1945?

D

In the Metropolitan Police the Duty cuff/band/armlet was introduced in 1830 and done away with in 1968. It was a response to the early "fear" by members of the public that, due to members of the newly formed Police having to wear their uniform virtually all the time, it was impossible to tell between an officer who was on or off duty (ie you might mistake an officer for being off duty and say or do something you might regret later). It is rather strange how they lasted over 130 years, given the fear disappeared relatively quickly and people then tended to approach an officer for help or similar if he was still in uniform whether officially on or off duty...

They certainly do appear to be Wounded Stripes, but I do not think he is a Special - the cork helmet in particular is fairly distinctive to the regulars, with the armlet on the lower left sleeve. Specials usually got peaked caps (if that, many had to make do with their civvies), with the armlet normally worn on the upper left arm instead, and sometimes a lapel badge.

[sw63]

The Essex Regiment?

[jackwright]

Firstly, thank you all for the comments so far.

Regarding the police officer in the photo, unfortunately, I've no idea who he is although it's a possibility that this is a 'family' photo and either the policeman and/or the young soldier in the photo were sons of Frederick John, as he had 2 other sons in their early twenties at this time in addition to the unfortunate eldest son who was killed in 1916.

Regarding the feedback from Ralph, you are correct and the army record I found was for his son was for Frederick Charles Williams who died in 1916. I've checked the pages of the copy of the army record I obtained for Frederick Charles and interestingly I could find no mention of a cause of death (or anything other than the date itself). Also, the only sheet I have in my copy of the army record definately refers to the late L/Cpl Frederick C Williams No: 9683 and says that his personal property should be dispatched to Pte F J Williams No:22558 (i.e. his father). Interestingly, my copy has no mention whatsoever of 112 Coy Royal Defence Corps either?

Ralph, I think you may have access to some different/extra information to what I have here and if so wondered if you would be kind enough to look again for me and if you think it relevant point me at where I might see a copy?

my thanks jack wright

[HarryBrook]

The badge is not surmounted by a crown, so that rules a few out.

What appear to be laurel branches both sides meet at the top.

There appears to be a scroll at the bottom of the badge.

There is some indistinct element in the centre - could it be Britannia?

Can't see anything that would appear to exactly match it in Reginald H. W. Cox's "Miltary Badges of the British Empire 1914-18".

I'll stick my head above the parapet and suggest it is the Norfolk Regiment.

[Khaki]

I been staring at the subject so long it looks like he is looking back at me, I have been through, in my mind, a range of badge possibilities,

nothing seemed to quite match, so I left the post for a while and when I returned to the photo the first thing that came to mind was that the badge on the old gent might be RMLI, any thoughts on that?

Is it possible that these older men were in the Royal Defense Corps, and that they might have worn their old regimental badges until the new ones came through?

khaki

[Steven Broomfield]

Mr Drill obviously never watched Dixon of Dock Green (or The Blue Lamp)

[Old Owl]

The men on the extreme left and right appear to be wearing the badge of either the East Surrey Regt or the 23rd Londons. The policeman is not a special constable, simply because he is wearing a helmet, something which I don't believe specials have ever done. He possibly has served in the army to receive two wound stripes and then either 'time expired', or invalided and returned to his pre-war job with H.M.Constabulary.

The badge on your relatives hat is very difficult but could be the pre 1908 version of the Yorkshire Regt badge ref: KK 615, probably very unlikely but not impossible.

[ralphjd]

15TH name down on Ancestry Service Records, seems like this lad has TWO sets of documents, must admit I didn't notice the 13th set down. "My" set gives the service number as 22555 not 8. Ralph.

[jackwright]

Ralph, thank you for the conformation. Unfortunately my personal subscription to Ancestry has now expired but I will try and get to the library tomorrow to check this out.

My thanks to everyone else who has replied so far for all the interesting ideas and I can definately see why the suggestions have been made.

Looking back at the other information I have for Frederick John, he does not appear to have strayed far from Gravesend after 1881 when he was first shown as living in this area, having been born in Lambeth.This all leads me to think that

whatever badge this turns out to be it is more likely to have local links to kent or London?

[Steven Broomfield]

He possibly has served in the army to receive two wound stripes and then either 'time expired',

Not wound stripes - see discussion above.

[Old Owl]

Not wound stripes - see discussion above.

I don't believe that the discussion has dismissed these as being wound stripes?

The Duty Cuff/Arm Band is actually just showing above the bottom of the picture and below the 'wound stripes'. I have a photo of a relative who was a special constable around WW1 and although he is wearing his as an arm band, it is easily recognisable. I have his Duty Arm Band and special constables badge, which both show in the photo I possess.

Please correct me if I have misread something here, or perhaps you could offer an alternative suggestion as to their identity?

[asanewt]

Does the shoulder title offer any clue?

[neilston]

Jack

If you scan this picture and post it into the Rootschat site they will fix it up for you, like new.

Its a Great site

Cheers Matt

[jackwright]

Matt, thank you for the tip about Rootschat and enhancing the photo. I have just posted an extract on their site and (fingers crossed) I will post any improved images on here as soon as I receiove them.

[jackwright]

Matt, A helpful member on the Rootschat forum has done some work on the photo and the cap badge now looks a lot clearer to me.

One poster on the Rootschat site suggested the RFC and included a copy of this badge alongside the cleaned up photo. I must confess that although it is close I'm not sure that is right though.

The outer ring is definately laurel leaves and the inner part almost looks like a brittania-type figure to me.

Hopefully, this new photo may assist the members on the board with their own suggestions?

Matt, A helpful member on the Rootschat forum has done some work on the photo and the cap badge now looks a lot clearer to me.

One poster on the Rootschat site suggested the RFC and included a copy of this badge alongside the cleaned up photo. I must confess that although it is close I'm not sure that is right though.

The outer ring is definately laurel leaves and the inner part almost looks like a brittania-type figure to me.

Hopefully, this new photo may assist the members on the board with their own suggestions?

apologies, the new photo got left off!

[jackwright]

[Khaki]

If the center device if Britannia, then the badge sounds like The Norfolk Regiment,

khaki

[sw63]

There is a small void between the bottom of the central device and the laurel wreath - so can't be Norfolks as they didn't have one. The touched-up photo makes the central device look like a GVR cypher.

Simon

[ralphjd]

Military Police ? GV Cypher

[neilston]

Frederick Williams WW1 extract caz.jpg

Norfolk Regiment soldier wearing cap with a pre-1937 pattern badge