CSM Herbert Barlow, DCM, MC - 6th Kings Shropshire, Light Infantry

[biffo1]

The attached photo includes my great uncle, CSM Herbert Barlow, but I do not know which soldier he is. Is anyone familiar with this Division, who could possibly identify him for me or give advice how I could do this? I would be very grateful. Thank you in advance. Barrie

[clive_hughes]

Hi,

A proper KSLI expert will be along shortly, but in the meantime I have found a Medal Index Card for 12168 Herbert Barlow 6th KSLI.

He landed in France on 24th July 1915 as a Private (Lance-Corporal) and rose to Warrant Officer 2nd Class with the MC and DCM.

This says he was medically discharged on 22nd March 1918, and given the Silver War Badge (No. B164073) in April 1919. The badge records show that CSM Barlow enlisted 1st Sept 1914, was discharged 3rd March 1918 (date also in the file below) aged 23 years 10 months, being medically unfit for military service.

He has a Pensions file on Ancestry, In April 1919 he was resident at 173 Ainsworth Road, Radcliffe, Lancs. and wrote enquiring about an addition to his pension because of his awards. In 1919 his disablement pension was 15 shillings a week, so he then got an extra 6 pence daily for having the DCM!

The photo above does not seem to show a KSLI group: they are mounted soldiers (note the spurs and riding breeches). Cap badge looks like Royal Artillery.

Clive

[Dawley Jockey]

I would agree with LST the photo shown is not KSLI and does look like Royal Artillery

For more info on the 6th KSLI you will probably have to wait for Annette (6th Shropshires) to pick up on this thread as she has written a book about this battalion.

Dave

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Barrie

Welcome to the Forum. How sure are you that Herbert is in this photo ? has Clive & Dave mention these men are not K.S.L.I. The only way that Herbert can be in this photo is if he had joined the Royal Artillery before moving to the K.S.L.I. but looking at his details I doubt that ?

Going of the details that I know about Herbert plus of details of men near his number, it looks like he enlisted at Bury along with 11 or 12 other men (bear in mind that is guess work on my part), here are 11 :-

12164 Pte. Mitchell, John, Born Manchester, Lancs. Enlisted Bury, Lancs.

12165 L/Cpl. Davies, George, M.M.

12166 Cpl. Eaton, James,

12167 Pte. Entwistle, Luke,

12168 C.S.M. Barlow, Herbert, (173 Ainsworth Rd., Radcliffe, Lancs.) Enlisted 1st Sept. 1914

12169 Pte. Glover, Joseph Calland,

12170 Pte. Byrne, William H.,

12171 Pte. Kearsley, Cecil, Enlisted 1st Sept. 1914

12172 L/Cpl. Lomas, William, Enlisted 1st Sept. 1914

12173 Pte. Polkinghorne, John, Born Radcliffe, Lancs. Enlisted Bury, Lancs.

12174 Pte. Burnett, Ernest, Born Burnley, Lancs. (Heywood) Enlisted Bury, Lancs.

They all landed in France in July 1915 with the 6th Battalion.

Is it possible the 11 men enlisted into the Royal Artillery and then transferred on mass to the K.S.L.I. ?, I have come across men who have enlisted in one Regiment/Corps and transferred within days to another (note-if the 11 or even just Herbert had transferred it would have had to have been within a very short time of enlisting because most of the K.S.L.I. men either side of these 11 men enlisted between about the 31st August & 7th September).

Plus I do not think this photo is post war because if he had joined up again after the war I am sure he would be entitled to wear something to show he was D.C.M. & M.C. holder, I not an expert in this field so if anyone thinks I am incorrect please let me know.

Barrie any info on the photo itself may help, is there anything on the back ?

Annette

[6th Shropshires]

Here are Citations

Herbert won the M.C. when he lead a party in an attack on Eagle Trench on 20-09-17.

M.C. Citation-For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He led an attack under heavy enfilade fire to the capture of a strongly-held enemy trench. Though bombed in the open he led his party into the trench, and by his prompt and gallant action he was the means of reducing a stubbornly defended position which had checked the advance of a large portion of the line. He personally led the assaulting party throughout, and when the objective was won he did valuable work in organising men of other units for consolidation. He set a magnificent example of courage and resource to his men.

I am not 100% sure when he won the D.C.M. He distinguished himself on 20-11-17 taking several prisoners on Welsh Ridge but going by the text of the citation I think he may have won it on the 30th November 1917 when the Germans launched their counter-attack against the British gains at Cambrai, the 6th Battalion had just come out of the line and camped at Fifteen Ravine, they advanced against the attacking Germans and helped stop them on their front. Also he appears in a list of men wounded & killed during this fight, and that ties in with the D.C.M. Citation.

Citation-for D.C.M. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Whilst the enemy were advancing he, seeing three teams of hostile machine gunners attempting to come into action, seized a machine gun, with which he killed many of the enemy, thus enabling his company to capture the guns. The latter he immediately assisted in bringing into action against the enemy. Though wounded he remained at his post, thus affording a fine example of endurance and courageous determination.

Annette

[biffo1]

Hi,

A proper KSLI expert will be along shortly, but in the meantime I have found a Medal Index Card for 12168 Herbert Barlow 6th KSLI.

He landed in France on 24th July 1915 as a Private (Lance-Corporal) and rose to Warrant Officer 2nd Class with the MC and DCM.

This says he was medically discharged on 22nd March 1918, and given the Silver War Badge (No. B164073) in April 1919. The badge records show that CSM Barlow enlisted 1st Sept 1914, was discharged 3rd March 1918 (date also in the file below) aged 23 years 10 months, being medically unfit for military service.

He has a Pensions file on Ancestry, In April 1919 he was resident at 173 Ainsworth Road, Radcliffe, Lancs. and wrote enquiring about an addition to his pension because of his awards. In 1919 his disablement pension was 15 shillings a week, so he then got an extra 6 pence daily for having the DCM!

The photo above does not seem to show a KSLI group: they are mounted soldiers (note the spurs and riding breeches). Cap badge looks like Royal Artillery.

Clive

Dear Clive,

Thank you very much for your prompt response and information. I did have the records on Great Uncle Herbert's awards/citations thank you. However, you do mention he was discharged being medically unfit for service. Is there anywhere, which you can suggest, where I could find what his injuries were? I will go into more detail regarding the photo etc. in my post to Annette.

Barrie

I would agree with LST the photo shown is not KSLI and does look like Royal Artillery

For more info on the 6th KSLI you will probably have to wait for Annette (6th Shropshires) to pick up on this thread as she has written a book about this battalion.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your response. As mentioned to Clive I will go into more detail in my post to Annette.

Barrie

[biffo1]

Here are Citations

Herbert won the M.C. when he lead a party in an attack on Eagle Trench on 20-09-17.

M.C. Citation-For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He led an attack under heavy enfilade fire to the capture of a strongly-held enemy trench. Though bombed in the open he led his party into the trench, and by his prompt and gallant action he was the means of reducing a stubbornly defended position which had checked the advance of a large portion of the line. He personally led the assaulting party throughout, and when the objective was won he did valuable work in organising men of other units for consolidation. He set a magnificent example of courage and resource to his men.

I am not 100% sure when he won the D.C.M. He distinguished himself on 20-11-17 taking several prisoners on Welsh Ridge but going by the text of the citation I think he may have won it on the 30th November 1917 when the Germans launched their counter-attack against the British gains at Cambrai, the 6th Battalion had just come out of the line and camped at Fifteen Ravine, they advanced against the attacking Germans and helped stop them on their front. Also he appears in a list of men wounded & killed during this fight, and that ties in with the D.C.M. Citation.

Citation-for D.C.M. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Whilst the enemy were advancing he, seeing three teams of hostile machine gunners attempting to come into action, seized a machine gun, with which he killed many of the enemy, thus enabling his company to capture the guns. The latter he immediately assisted in bringing into action against the enemy. Though wounded he remained at his post, thus affording a fine example of endurance and courageous determination.

Annette

Hi Annette,

Thank you very much for your two posts with information about my Great Uncle Herbert. The photo is one of two photos I have showing enlisted men, which I received after my mother and subsequently my older sister had passed away. When I was young (I was born in 1945) my mother had told me Uncle Herbert was a war hero and I had assumed that he was on one of the two photos. This particular photo seemed, to me, to show cap badges similar to the KSLI badge, but apparently I was wrong - maybe I should get new glasses ha ha. Unfortunately, there is nothing written on the back of either of these photos. I will look again more closely at the badges on the other photo.

I have the originals of the two citations for the CSM & MC, together with the original telegraph for the CSM. I am not sure if you are interested in individuals' awards for your archives. If so let me know and I can upload them.

I have only the information which I have been able to research online regarding his service record with the KSLI and so, regrettable, do not know if he was first enlisted in the Royal Artillery.

Obviously, I am very proud of Uncle Herbert and his bravery and it would have been nice to have a photo of him to go along with the other records we have of him.

Thank you once again for all your help and information.

Barrie

[spof]

Here are Citations

Herbert won the M.C. when he lead a party in an attack on Eagle Trench on 20-09-17.

M.C. Citation-For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. He led an attack under heavy enfilade fire to the capture of a strongly-held enemy trench. Though bombed in the open he led his party into the trench, and by his prompt and gallant action he was the means of reducing a stubbornly defended position which had checked the advance of a large portion of the line. He personally led the assaulting party throughout, and when the objective was won he did valuable work in organising men of other units for consolidation. He set a magnificent example of courage and resource to his men.

I am not 100% sure when he won the D.C.M. He distinguished himself on 20-11-17 taking several prisoners on Welsh Ridge but going by the text of the citation I think he may have won it on the 30th November 1917 when the Germans launched their counter-attack against the British gains at Cambrai, the 6th Battalion had just come out of the line and camped at Fifteen Ravine, they advanced against the attacking Germans and helped stop them on their front. Also he appears in a list of men wounded & killed during this fight, and that ties in with the D.C.M. Citation.

Citation-for D.C.M. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. Whilst the enemy were advancing he, seeing three teams of hostile machine gunners attempting to come into action, seized a machine gun, with which he killed many of the enemy, thus enabling his company to capture the guns. The latter he immediately assisted in bringing into action against the enemy. Though wounded he remained at his post, thus affording a fine example of endurance and courageous determination.

Annette

Annette

You are correct in thinking his DCM was for the action on 30.11.17. It was gazetted on 1st May 1918 and this is from the TNA DCM Registers in WO 391/6.

Glen

[6th Shropshires]

I have the originals of the two citations for the CSM & MC, together with the original telegraph for the CSM. I am not sure if you are interested in individuals' awards for your archives. If so let me know and I can upload them.

Barrie

That would be great Berrie, thanks.

Annette

Annette

You are correct in thinking his DCM was for the action on 30.11.17. It was gazetted on 1st May 1918 and this is from the TNA DCM Registers in WO 391/6.

Glen

Cheers Glen

[clive_hughes]

Barrie,

Sadly the Pensions file is mainly to do with his 6 pence extra and only refers in passing to a "partial disablement", and I don't think his service papers have survived.

However, if you feel like paying for a search of the recently-available Pensions files via the Western Front Association, this is the link: http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-current-news/pension-records.html

I understand that if no file is found there will be a partial reimbursement.

Clive

[biffo1]

Barrie,

Sadly the Pensions file is mainly to do with his 6 pence extra and only refers in passing to a "partial disablement", and I don't think his service papers have survived.

However, if you feel like paying for a search of the recently-available Pensions files via the Western Front Association, this is the link: http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-current-news/pension-records.html

I understand that if no file is found there will be a partial reimbursement.

Clive

Hi Clive,

Thank you for this information. I will have a look at the site.

Barrie

[biffo1]

That would be great Berrie, thanks.

Annette

Cheers Glen

Hi Annette, Here is the DCM of 30 Nov 1917. I will try uploading the MC Citation and the other photo in the next post. System will not upload these even though less than 250 KB!

Barrie

[biffo1]

Hi Annette,

Here is the MC dated 20 Sept 1917 near Langemarck.

Barrie

[biffo1]

Hi Annette,

Here is the 2nd photo which has been torn in half. On checking the back I see it shows:

Reg

39

dershot

So it would seem that this one was taken possibly in Aldershot in 1939! So this could only be Great Uncle Herbert if he reinlisted. The soldier in the second row from bottom, 4th person in from the right seems to be the only one wearing any medals. He also appears to bear a resemblance to his older brother Harry (from whom we have a photo).

Barrie

[biffo1]

Hi Annette,

Reverse of photo taken in Aldershot.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards,

Barrie

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Annette,

Here is the MC dated 20 Sept 1917 near Langemarck.

Barrie

Cheers Barrie, I will down load the group photo and see if I can match the person wearing medals with anyone in the photos I have of 6th Battalion. Also the Medal Card above is incorrect, he lead his men in an attack on Eagle Trench on the 20th Sept 1917 not Au Bon Gite.

Annette

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Barrie

I have been looking at the Aldershot photo, and the man wearing the medals also looking like he as two crowns on his sleeve ? (anyone who knows about insignia and the like what do you think).

Also I can not make out the cap badge that well, looks a bit like R.A.S.C. ? a few others badges that it could be -Cheshire Regtiment, Border, Devons or one of the Guards Regiments, again anyone who is an expert in cap badges what do you think

I have looked at some of the photos I have the 6th K.S.L.I. but I could not make him out in any of them but I am going to scan them all and have a closer look.

Annette

[biffo1]

Hi Annette,

Thank you for your two responses above and taking the time to try to identify Great Uncle Herbert.

Barrie

[6th Shropshires]

Hi Barrie

There is a group of photos of the 6th Battalion taken in I think July 1917 (I have moved on the 1st Batt., and my notes on the 6th Batt. are among lots of now unused paper work and I do not have time to look through it), one of the photos looks to me to contain all the Warrant Officers and Sgt.'s, it is very likely that Herbert is in this photo even if he is still only a Sgt. at this point ? We need to find out when he became a C.S.M., I tried to narrow down when he may have obtained that rank by looking at all the C.S.M.'s who served with the Battalion but in the end gave up due to lack of information on many of them.

I do not have time to try and find out when he became C.S.M., but you could always ask if anyone on forum knows of any sources that mite record this information (possibly the London Gazzett ?)

If you PM me your email address I will send you the photo but this photo belongs to the Regimental Museum so if you ever want to use in any form like on internet you would have to ask them for permission.

Annette

[biffo1]

Hi,

As per Annette's suggestion, does anyone know where I could find when Great Uncle Herbert became a CSM?

Thank you in advance.

Barrie

[jayne russell]

Hi Barrie,

l came across this website as my daughter is undertaking a project about WW1 and has to produce information about a soldier or a relative who served in tne war. Of course we picked her Great Grandfather Herbert Barlow!

Your Uncle Herbert is my mother Joyce's father. THere is a photo of you at mum's wedding! I attach a photo of him below- I dont think he is on any of the photos you have posted. If you would like to get in touch I have much more information about him (or mum does - she's still alive).

WE must be related but how exactly I'm not sure!

Kind regards Jayne Russell (nee Sellers)

[jayne russell]

Sorry cant post the photo yet -will try to get used to the technology!

[Stebie9173]

If you use the "More Reply Options" there is a facility to attach photos. They must be under 250kb in size, so you may need to copy your original file and resize the copy.

Use Choose File button and once selected, click on Attach File.

Steve.

[jayne russell]

[jayne russell]

My father was Herbert Barlow He is not on this photo

Joyce