801 MT Coy ASC War Diary

[johnboy]

Until proved differently, I am prepared to say it was a 5 ton lorry. For the same reasons as above a 15t lorry would have had the same difficulties in France.

As some of the earlier lorries had wooden chassis I doubt they would have had even a 2 ton capacity.

Even pictures showing damaged lorries seem to show that the steel chassis were rather light.

[Rockdoc]

Not forgetting that most vehicles of the period were only braked on the rear axles and were swines to stop at the best of times. I wouldn't like to be the driver of a 15-tonner on a steep hill, going up or down!

Keith

[johnboy]

I wonder if the engines available would have been sufficient? Steam tractors would have done but would have been slow.

The engines in tanks, weighing around 24t could only manage a top speed of around 4mph.

[Gardenerbill]

For now I am happy to accept that the lorry is 5 ton and I too would be surprised if there was a 15 ton lorry, but more research off line is required to confirm one way or the other.

Getting back to the war diary, the next page covers June 1st to 5th 1917.

Most of the lorries are sent to Corps H.Q. at K72. There are still cars and motorcycles in for repair.

The most interesting entry is this one:

'Started for Nigreta to visit anti-aircraft lorries there, but rain came on and could not get beyond Suhabanjia owing to heavy rain that aftn.'

There have been a few entries like this and I think the officer is probably taking one of the companies cars.

Keith were you aware of the anti-aircraft lorries at Nigreta (Nigrita)?

[Rockdoc]

Yes, I was aware of them. 91st AAS had Subsections at Marian and Nigrita for quite a long time from their arrival in early 1917. The Struma was never well served for AA guns. 76th went east in October 1916, having one gun at 72.5 kilo and the other at various spots between Kopriva and Ormanli. There were never more than three Sections in action on that part of the front.

Having seen first hand just how flat the Struma Valley is, it isn't hard to imagine that a period of rain would bring water pouring off the hills onto the plain and put a lot of already-boggy ground under water, let alone any effects from a rising water level in the river and lake. When 98th AAS was moved from Guvesne to Tahinos/Ahinos - right on the side of the lake - in early 1918 they had all kinds of trouble getting to the site in the first place and a whole lot more trying to get their supplies in by motor transport. In the end, they had to cadge some mules for the job. I'd say what they had to call roads we might have another noun for.

Keith

[Gardenerbill]

Keith another question for you.

In 'Under the devils eye' Alan Wakefield mentions the withdrawal from the outpost line in the Struma valley by the infantry in May 1917, to avoid the heat and the mosquitoes.

Did the anti-aircraft sections such as the 91st also withdraw from the valley for the summer?

[Rockdoc]

I've had a quick look and it doesn't look like they did. They moved around during the summer and autumn, with Mahmudli, Marian Flying Ground, Coles Kop and Nigoslav being mentioned as well as Nigrita and Marian but nothing is said that suggests any withdrawal for medical reasons.

Keith

[Gardenerbill]

Next page is June 6^th to 13^th

A series of road reconnaissances are carried out:

LAHANA – HADJI BARAMLI - MIROVA –MOZGAL – found roads suitable for lorries.

NIGRITA – HUMKOS- DZINDOS – MONUHI – Slept in car by TAHINOS LAKE a few mosquitos about Lt JAMES R.E. came with me.

To IVRON, PATRIK, GARGHULA, found roads passable for lorries to carry day traffic over

5 lorries sent for decauville material K66¹/₂ to K74

3641 for water (Corps ablution shed)

3642, 3643, for H.Q’s 28^th Div (Coles Kop) 3641, 3644, 3646 for H.Q’s 10^th Div (Dragos)

To SABANTAR with lorries moving 10 Div H.Q.

3645 for Surrey Yeomanry K59

[Gardenerbill]

Among the now familiar lorry movement entries along the Seres road and up and down the western edge of the Struma valley, is this extraordinary entry on June 14th:

‘To LIKOVAN in the petrol tractor on Decauville Rly, made by Lt Waithman with 10 H.P. Austin w’shop engine & Ford axle with a view to seeing if petrol tractors could be made to supersede rail traction pulled 22 men & large bogie truck but came off road several times as railway very badly ballasted’

[Rockdoc]

One word of caution about HP ratings in the Diary: they are not going to be brake horsepower but RAC horsepower, which was calculated on the dimensions of the engine and used for the road fund licence tax bands. Speaking very, very loosely, 1 HP is equivalent to 100cc. As an example, the Austin 7 had a 750cc engine. Thus, the engine used in this special is probably around 1100cc.

The actual calculation is (D² x n)/2.5 where 'D' is the bore of the cylinders in inches and 'n' the number of cylinders. You can easily see why long-stroke engines were popular!

Keith

[johnboy]

One word of caution about HP ratings in the Diary: they are not going to be brake horsepower but RAC horsepower, which was calculated on the dimensions of the engine and used for the road fund licence tax bands. Speaking very, very loosely, 1 HP is equivalent to 100cc. As an example, the Austin 7 had a 750cc engine. Thus, the engine used in this special is probably around 1100cc.

The actual calculation is (D² x n)/2.5 where 'D' is the bore of the cylinders in inches and 'n' the number of cylinders. You can easily see why long-stroke engines were popular!

Keith

When did taxation bands come in ?

[Rockdoc]

I didn't know so I have used Google and Wiki. The latter suggests that Vehicle Excise Duty based on the RAC HP was introduced in 1909 by David Lloyd George, along with a tax on petrol, but that other taxes on motoring had been imposed since 1889.

Keith

[johnboy]

Thanks Keith. Shows that some of our 'new' ideas are not so new then.

[Gardenerbill]

To provide a more recent example a Morris Mini Minor had the 848cc A series engine and according to Wiki it produced 34 HP.

[Rockdoc]

My 498cc 1958 Matchless G80S had a 3.25" bore so it was (3.25² x 1)/2.5 or 4.2HP. It produced about 18bhp.

Keith

[zartas]

Among the now familiar lorry movement entries along the Seres road and up and down the western edge of the Struma valley, is this extraordinary entry on June 14th:

‘To LIKOVAN in the petrol tractor on Decauville Rly, made by Lt Waithman with 10 H.P. Austin w’shop engine & Ford axle with a view to seeing if petrol tractors could be made to supersede rail traction pulled 22 men & large bogie truck but came off road several times as railway very badly ballasted’

This is indeed an extraordinary entry! Is there any other reference to the Likovan - Mirova or Kopriva - Gudeli Light Rlys? The former was poorly laid with light tracks and it is reported to depend solely on animal power. The Railway Gazette Special War Transportation Issue of September 21, 1920 claims that the Likovan line "..was re-laid with heavy material in the summer of 1917...". Perhaps this rather unfortunate test-run had something to do with it. By the way, if anyone wants a digitized copy of the RG Special's "Railways and The Salonica Campaign" send an e-mail to zartaloodes@yahoo.com

[Gardenerbill]

Zartas,

Thank you for your reply, I have only got as far as July 1917 in the war diary so there may be more on the railways to come, if I find anything I will post it here.

I would be very interested in your 'Railways and the Salonica Campaign' document I will send you a direct message with my email address.

[Gardenerbill]

If anyone has any ideas on what this says, I would be grateful (my own fault for taking a blurred image)

This is what I think it says

3646, for 26^th Middx Pioneers K72 3641, 3643, for 16^th Corps K71. 3647, for Meteorological

*___ ____ ___ ____ for 2 days altogether

Section K74 3642 for 28 Div K74. 3645 Rations Corps cars, 559, 611, lorry 641 in for repairs

To ____ near Kop____ to get some _ ______ there ___ been caught while stopping ___ two days

__________ by _____ ____ &

__________________________________

3643, for 26^th MIDDX Pioneers K72 3642, 3647, for 16^th Corps K71 3646, for 28 Div

K74, 3644, Rations Corps car, 1510, 1473 in for repairs. To C.H.Q. & to see S.S.O. 27 Div

Re log gathering. Corps Commander had ___ __ Decauville __________ _________ _______

[Rockdoc]

I can't help much but I think the thing they went to fetch near Kop(riva?) was "our Sunbeam {a staff car or light van I expect} that had been caught while driving _____ two days previously " I can't work any more out, I'm afraid.

Keith

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Keith every little helps, Sunbeam is the first vehicle make I have come across so far, I can see it now.

[Gardenerbill]

I think I have worked out the last sentence:

'Corps Commander has been on Decauville behind petrol tractor.'

[Rockdoc]

Looking again, it's 3621 3643 in the first line. A 2 at this period is often written on a slant and it doesn't compare to the 4 in the next group, having no downstroke. Going back to the sentence I had a go at, I am less sure that it says driving now but the next word is men. Compare the last letter with the last letter of Likovan. I think it goes men two days previously by the gardens but the rest of that sentence escapes me. The next one goes something like We "______" it __ & got it ____ in after 3 hours work but then I'm stumped again. Clearly the word in quotes - jimmied? - means they used ad hoc methods to repair the Sunbeam enough to get it moving. The fragments I can see in the rest of that suggest that the repair was a very temporary affair and I can see the word stop further on.

There's a connection that hasn't been mentioned so far and that's the asterisks. In the line above K74 3642 I think the first word is Car and the third word is its. The Sunbeam and car together make things clear - on that part at least! I also think the word I took to be our before - * Sunbeam is car, as well.

Keith

[Gardenerbill]

Keith,

The pages of the diary follow a similar pattern in that the Subaltern writes the daily entries leaving blank lines in between. Then I believe Captain Patton the CO adds information in the gaps, often relating to his activities reconnoitering routes etc. You can see the different hand, I hadn't worked out that the mark in front of Sunbeam is an asterisk referring the reader to the line above as you surmised. How about this as a possible interpretation of the text.

To _ near Kop(riva?) to get our * Sunbeam that had been caught while stopping there two days

previously by (sudden mud?) & water from hills.

and on the third line looks like

'Pass very steep in places'

[Gardenerbill]

I think the story here is that the Sunbeam was out near Kopriva when it was caught in a storm there was rain or a mud slide that perhaps damaged the road and put the Sunbeam out of action. A lorry was sent out to fetch the men and try and get the Sunbeam going after 3 hours they succeeded and returned to camp.

The only way to interpret the text further will be to create sample words from other pages to compare the shapes, this will take time so in the meantime I have decided to carry on working through the pages.

There is another entry on the 26^th June about the petrol tractor:

'Trying the petrol tractor again on the Likovan – Mirova Decauville railway with Major (Allen?) R.E.'

[Rockdoc]

I think your interpretation is plausible. The Struma valley is as flat as a billiard table and was often marshy at the time of WW1, a situation ameliorated by drainage works between the Wars. Lakes Tahinos and Ardzan were drained completely, for example. Kopriva is close to the Krusha Balkan hills but the soils there are thin so any significant rainfall must mean that water soon travels onto the plain. When you add in that even the best roads were battered by the levels of traffic and needed almost constant work it isn't hard to imagine that any road might give problems or subside where it travels over ground prone to water-logging.

Keith