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Remembered Today:

Gordon Highlanders


IanA

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I have a neighbour who wishes to explore her father's movements in the Great War. He served with the Gordon Highlanders but, unfortunately, his name was Smith and she didn't have his regimental number. Well, yesterday she found his medals and we are looking for Joseph Smith, 11814. I found him on the medal roll which says he went to France in December, 1915 but I can't find his service history. Any assistance will be most gratefully received.

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From Ancestry MIC:

He has 2 numbers -11814 with which he first served overseas with entering France on 13/12/15.

Second number same regiment is 266086 - this would apear to be a TF number which would have been alocated to the 6th Bn GH.

He was transfered to Class Z (effectively retired) 8/02/19

Quite hard to be positive as to what unit he served with however a best guess:

The regulars were in the No. 1500's in August 14, The service bns then used the same series.

However he did not go overseas with the 1st or second bn so unlikely to be in either of those but could be in a service bn.

TF units each had their own numbering sequence so:

He ended up in the 6th Bn and by chance there is a Pte John Able no 11861 who served in the 6th Bn joining the army 16/03/15, If the 6th Bn was the unit Able joined then, my guess would be he joined the TF 6th Bn early 1915 prob Feb /Mar was trained then went overseas to join the bn. In 1917 when the TF was renumbered he recieved his new number.

However there are other possibilities such as joining a service Bn then transfering to 6th when in France. (transfer after wounding was very common)

Hope of some use

James

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Thanks very much indeed for those thoughts, James. I saw the number change and presumed it was an administrational thing post-war. The 11814 number appears on his medals. He joined up under-age but was 'rescued' by an irate dad, joining up later, as soon as he legally could. The 6th Bn is news to me so that is welcome.

Ian

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Glad to help,

The number 11814 would apply to the unit he was serving with at the time he first became eligable for that medal.

The number 266086 would be alocated either because he was existing 6th Bn on the date of their renumbering or alocated on transfer into the 6th after they renumbered.

If did indeed join legaly in 1915 he can't have been that much under age when war broke out and he tried the first time. - he may be entitled to a SWB for his first period of service but trying to find it will be nigh on impossible with the surname smith an unknown unit and an unknown number.

James

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Thanks again, James. The family story (which, as I'm sure you are aware, can be unreliable) is that he served in Italy. I wonder if that indicates the 2nd Bn?

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Ian,

The 2nd GH did indeed go to Italy in Nov 17.

Go to http://www.1914-1918.net/gordon.htm for more info.

Family History could well be right tracing a man's service based on his number/s is a bit hit and miss.

He could have been 2nd bn and served with them in Italy subsequently transfering to the 6th Bn. But if 11814 was his 2nd bn number after 1917 he should have retained it when he transfered to the 6th.

I'll have a look and see if that number could have been used by the regular/service bns 1914 /1915, (he had to have joined some time before mid 1915) and if so aprox dates...... I may be some time!

James

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Hi Mike and James. MrsA has just had a long conversation with our neighbour, Hazel, and come up with the following - Joseph Smith, born Edinburgh 28/12/1897. Father - Joseph Gordon Smith, mother - Jane Marshall Potter MccLellan. Hazel has our man's birth certificate and on it is stamped (on the back) '5925 Smith' and '4th November, 1916' which is when Hazel reckons he joined the Territorials in Aberdeenshire. Curiouser and curiouser...

We know that he joined up under-age - maybe he got to France with a draft of Gordons before irate father got him back? I'm guessing that kids who lied about their age still qualified for medals?

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Ian,

A brief look at SWB records would indicate that the GH were using the S prefix for their service Bn recruits, further the 7bn seams to be in the 3000 at the same time as the 6th is in the 11000. Likewise the 5th appear to have passed this point in late 14.

The S prefix and non prefixed numbers are a bit jumbled but this number would seem to have been issued some time during June, July August 1915. However there are similar numbers being issued in late 15 and mid 16 as well.

If you can confirm his DOB we might be able to narrow down the possibilities.

James

Edit - just seen your posts will have a thunk.

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Hi Mike and James. MrsA has just had a long conversation with our neighbour, Hazel, and come up with the following - Joseph Smith, born Edinburgh 28/12/1897. Father - Joseph Gordon Smith, mother - Jane Marshall Potter MccLellan. Hazel has our man's birth certificate and on it is stamped (on the back) '5925 Smith' and '4th November, 1916' which is when Hazel reckons he joined the Territorials in Aberdeenshire. Curiouser and curiouser...

We know that he joined up under-age - maybe he got to France with a draft of Gordons before irate father got him back? I'm guessing that kids who lied about their age still qualified for medals?

Yes they still got their medals. Also, the stamp on the birth cert. might be when he was discovered to be under-age. My granddad joined 18th August 1914 he was discovered as an under-age soldier coincidentally August 1915 and the back of his birth cert. has a brigade stamp of 18th August 1915. He still got his '15 Star...just a thought you might want to consider...

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Yes they still got their medals. Also, the stamp on the birth cert. might be when he was discovered to be under-age. My granddad joined 18th August 1914 he was discovered as an under-age soldier coincidentally August 1915 and the back of his birth cert. has a brigade stamp of 18th August 1915. He still got his '15 Star...just a thought you might want to consider...

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

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The numbers 11814/266086 are a perfect fit for a 6th Gordon Highlander. I have a reasonable amount of data for lowland and highland Scots TF enlistments and 11814 fits with enlistment into 2/6th Gordons o/a 6th Feb 1915.



Stuart
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Aha!! A regimental numbering geek (and I mean that in the nicest possible way :hypocrite::D:thumbsup: ) I hoped one would pop up!! Thanks very much indeed, Stuart, our Pte Smith is a little less fuzzy than he was.

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Thanks Stuart I wasn't too far off the mark with my first thoughts.

So....If the medals numbered 11814 belong to this Joseph Smith and he is the same as Joseph Smith whose Birth certificate has the number 5925 then..

I would have thought that aged 16 in 1914 he enlisted in a unit (unknown) and was issued the number 5925. Daddy pointed out he was underage and got him out. Then in or around Feb 15 he reenlisted in the 2/6th GH was issued the number 11814, trained with them at a home base and then sent to France to join the 1/6 GH. At that point he became eligable for the 15 Star and the other 2 medals. During 17 the TF was renumbered and he became 266086. Then demob on 8/02/19 transfering to class Z reserve. If Stuarts date is correct (I have no reason to doubt it) then service of 4 years and 2 days.

The numbers 11814 and 266086 are 'tied together' on the same MIC and are for the same man. the first number joined in Feb 15 and so must have served continously through to the renumbering in 17. In other words this period of service was not interupted by being discharged for being underage.

I can find no reference for either MIC or service records for 5925, No MIC indicates he did not serve overseas making it far more likely that it was issued first then service terminated for being underage. The date on the Birth Certificate could be when the certificate was returned by the Army.

Of course we could be talking about 2 seperate soldiers.

James

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A regimental numbering geek - oh yes, I like my numbers.


I agree with the 6th Gordons service part of James' summary above i.e. the two numbers on the MIC fit with the 6th GH numbering pattern indicating unbroken service with this battalion (in its various forms 2/6th, 1/6th) from his enlistment through to the early 1917 TF renumbering. I can't offer an explanation for the 5925 number.


Some further detail of his service for you. He is listed in a huge Gordon Highlander wounded list published in The Scotsman, 26 May 1917: Smith, 266086, J. (Edinburgh)


The date of publication along with names of GH men killed in the same issue suggest that these men were likely to have been wounded o/a 23 April 1917 during the Second Battle of the Scarpe (Arras Offensive) in which the 51st (Highland) Division was heavily involved. Perhaps after recovering from his wounds he was posted to the 2nd Bn and ended up in Italy.


Stuart

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Thanks James - I had formulated a slightly different scenario: he enlists in Feb 1915 and undergoes training and is then sent out with a draft in Dec of that year. He sends a letter home (I can now say that his family were living in Edinburgh at that time but he enlisted in Aberdeenshire) and his father (who had no idea where he was, up to that point) takes his birth certificate along to an army depot where it is stamped. The 5925 may just be a reference number. He is brought back but goes out again as soon as he is able, in 1916, to rejoin his regiment.

Stuart - lovely scrap of information regarding his wounding. I think that may be new to my neighbour. Many thanks.

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Ian,

Unfortunately the army would not reinstate him with his original number, each period of service would be defined with a new and unique to that unit number.

Thus if he had left in 16 then there would have been 2 MIC for him one with 11814, then another MIC with a second number and if still in 6GH the 3rd No 266086.

If he left due to being under age or any other reason that is treated as being a seperate and unique period of service. Even if he rejoined the next day he would still be treated as having a second unique period of service.

Hope that clarifys my thought process and the reason why I came up with that theory.

All the best

James

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Interesting. I bow to your greater expertise - and thanks for bearing with me. I wonder whether the lack of service history is due to Ancestry incompetence or Nazi bombs?

Ian

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Ian,

No problem - I like a good mystery and it is always nice when poeple find a solution. I have found it incredable the amount of knowlage here - one is always learning. Which is another reason for coming back.

As to $%**£$%% Ancestry - their search function drives me up the wall. Could be either but in fairness to them prob the bombs.

James

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While we are on the Gordon Highlanders numbering any idea what service battalion Private John Blincow S4651 was enlisted with and when.

John was MID 15 June 1916 LG page 5950 but this and MIC's doesnt provide a clue to his Bn.

Thanks

Roger

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Edited by oxlade134
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May have found answer to my question found at post

"The 9th Gordons were the divisional pioneers and landed in France on the 9th of July 1915."

However there is still possibility of 10th Service Bn , does anybody have date in July they landed at Boulougne?

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On 22/10/2013 at 23:16, oxlade134 said:

May have found answer to my question found at post

"The 9th Gordons were the divisional pioneers and landed in France on the 9th of July 1915."

However there is still possibility of 10th Service Bn , does anybody have date in July they landed at Boulougne?

Had a look in the 15th Div History and it does not give the dates for individual Bn just that the whole div moved to France during 7th July to 10th July 1915. Advance parties from the Bns went over via Le Havre along with RA RE ambulances etc, the Infantry via Boulougne.

I suspect that almost all the inf Bn went over on the 9th so that date alone will not narrow it down.

Both 9 & 10 are equally valid.

James

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James,

I agree that this landing date may not be useful in determining his Bn , it was a long shot.

Thanks for looking into my query

Roger

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