Albert birch Medal card

[Pabloabadul 1]

Hello,

I have been lead here via roots chat as I am trying find someone who has a copy of Ivor Lees book on the Labour Corps. The picture shows albert Birch born in 1900 we have narrowed down the medal cards and are 99% certain he was in the border regiment down to the cap badge on the picture and then transferred to the Labour corps.

Here is a transcription of the record

Border regiment private 33534

Labour corps 455273

Roll: LC/102B23 Page:2246

I would like to know when he enlisted and every other detail possible as I am out of my depth with knowledge. Also if there were any war diaries which someone could point me to which he was definitely involved in I would be very grateful. I have also thought as he was only of the age of about 20 post war 1920-21 could he have a service record held by the MOD as I would purchase it if there was one. But I need more expertise

Thanks a lot

C.B

[Phil Evans]

He transferred to the Labour Corps in the period October 1917 to January 1918 according to the table in "No Labour, No Battle"

Phil

[Pabloabadul 1]

Is there any other information like battalion war diaries that are available to see

[Pabloabadul 1]

Can anyone help me anymore?

[kenf48]

The mic shows he originally went overseas with the Border Regiment after the 31st December 1915, a quick look through the surviving records suggests enlistment late1916/early 1917, and then os after training say 3/4 months later though, it's not an exact science. From the limited information about his birth this suggests he came under the terms of the Military Service Act and was conscripted into the Army.

Most transfers to the Labour Corps (but by no means all) came about due to a downgrading of the soldier's fitness. Unfortunately without a record a diary won't help you (Other Ranks were rarely mentioned by name anyway). Also the Labour Corps is quite difficult to research as the Medal Rolls (the LC reference), which are not online, are unlikely to give his unit.

You may be able find out more, for example in local newspapers of the time, and there are many research tips on the parent site the Long Long Trail (LLT) http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/research/index.php/find-your-soldier/

Does the town have a Roll of Honour? Regimental museum forr the Border Regiment?

As a conscript it's unlikely he served beyond 1921 and his record is unlikely to be at the MOD.

but don't give up!

Ken

[Pabloabadul 1]

So if albert birch went oversees with the border regiment how long would he have been there also would there be any war diaries or photos with him in. Also what is "mic".

thanks

C.B

[Pabloabadul 1]

Also what battalion could he have been in

thanks

C.B

[eairicbloodaxe]

MIC = medal information card...

[Pabloabadul 1]

The mic shows he originally went overseas with the Border Regiment after the 31st December 1915, a quick look through the surviving records suggests enlistment late1916/early 1917, and then os after training say 3/4 months later though, it's not an exact science. From the limited information about his birth this suggests he came under the terms of the Military Service Act and was conscripted into the Army.

So if albert birch went oversees with the border regiment how long would he have been there also would there be any war diaries or photos with him in.

thanks

C.B

thanks to anyone that could help

[Blackblue]

Most of the men who died with numbers between 33520 and 33549 served with the 11th Bn.

A researcher should be able to look at the Medal Rolls at NA, which should confirm Bn.

Rgds

Tim D

[Pabloabadul 1]

The medal rolls at the national archives do they have more information than online medal rolls or are they kept in battalion order. Also did the 11th battalion go overseas when albert birch was with the border regiment?

[Blackblue]

Yes he served OS with the Border Regiment and the Labour Corps. His initial OS unit was probably 11th Bn, Border Regiment. The numbers on the Medal Index Card refer to the Medal Rolls themselves. In this case they were maintained by his final unit (Labour Corps). The Reference is Roll: LC/102B23 Page:2246.

Read here about the 11th Bn http://www.1914-1918.net/border.htm

Here about 32nd Division http://www.1914-1918.net/32div.htm

Here about the Labour Corps http://www.1914-1918.net/labour.htm

And here http://www.labourcorps.co.uk/

I also suggest you have a look at the sister site as mentioned by Ken http://www.1914-1918.net/

[Pabloabadul 1]

I have a photo of him here just to check it fits with the information we have so far.

[Pabloabadul 1]

here`s the photo

[Blackblue]

Looks like Border Regt. Can you blow the hat up?

[Pabloabadul 1]

sure

[Pabloabadul 1]

Is it possible that he fought any battles with the border regiment. Are there any war diaries for the 11th battalion. Also does the photo prove or disprove whether he was in the 11th battalion and does it give any other details

[kenf48]

Just for the sake of accuracy (and pedantry) the mic is the 'British Army Medal Rolls Index Card' generally shortened to medal index card,and finally mic, which from the info in your original post I assume you have.

The Rolls are not available online but can be viewed at the National Archives (you will need the roll reference of his card). As Tim says he's on the Labour Corps Rolls which may be a problem as it may not list the Border Regiment Battalion (the medals were inscribed to the first unit but for administrative purposes were issued by the last one).

There is more information on the LLT

http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/medals.htm

The photo does not tell you which Battalion he was in and as he appears to be a conscript it's unlikely there was a local affiliation (the original 11th (Lonsdale) Bn was raised locally) however someone has done the hard yards and transcribed the diaries of the 11th Bn

http://border-regiment.co.uk/index.php?title=11th_(Service)_Battalion_Border_Regiment_(Lonsdale)

However, before you chase that hare you may think you need more solid information, but as a working hypothesis he was with them a relatively short time say from March/April 1917 to when he joined the Labour Corps vide post 2.

Ken

[Pabloabadul 1]

so by more solid information are the medal rolls the only possible way to go with the information I have?

thanks

Would there be an exception if he was in the border regiment for giving battalion in the labour corps roll?

[kenf48]

I've not studied the Labour Corps Rolls but understand they give only limited information as to his unit, whereas the Regimental Rolls tend to give the Battalion first served in.

It's worth a look if you're going to Kew but imho not worth a trip just to look up the LC Rolls.

Are you still local to where he lived, if so looking through the local papers might pay dividends, especially if his move to the LC was prompted by a wound.

Ken

[Pabloabadul 1]

He was from Liverpool west derby a search on the British newspaper archive does not probe anything. Were there any local gazettes for the Liverpool area which would list thins like wounds etc. Also would he be listed as a. birch or albert birch?

[kathleen donaldson]

If he appears in a casualty list as wounded he would be recorded as

Regiment Surname number Initial Home town of NOK- I am indexing these lists and I have no entry for a A. Birch who served with those Regiments. I'll keep him in mind if I should come across a reference to him.

[spof]

As Ken says, the Labour Corps medal rolls only give limited information. All they show is a previous regiment but not battalion and no unit for his time in the LC. IF he had qualified for a Star, they show the detail you are looking for but not possible in this case.

[Pabloabadul 1]

Are there any other reasons for him joining the labour corps apart from him being wounded. Also if the labour corps roll is a dead end are there any other options to try?

thanks

[kenf48]

I didn't say he was wounded, but that he may have been and his transfer to the LC may have been as a result of a downgrading of his medical category, but equally he could have had a skill the Labour Corps wanted. If he had been wounded he may have appeared on a casualty list but it seems that's another 'brick wall'.

There are no absolutes in this research especially with no service record, it's educated guesswork and following up leads. For example does the Border Regiment Museum hold muster rolls or enlistment information? The WFA (Western Front Association) is indexing some pension records http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-current-news/pension-records.html but only doing manual look ups at the moment. New sources are becoming available online all the time but sometimes even with old fashioned leg work it's difficult. You could try browsing the records for similar numbers and then looking for drafts in the war diaries but that is no more accurate than Tim's educated guess of looking at the casualties.

Ken