A family photo of various soldiers and sailors

[Drew-1918]

Please could anyone help with any comments or advice on this group of soldiers and sailors (and a fireman?). I found it when going through my Nan's photos after she had died. She may have told me who the various people were at one point, when I was about 8 or 9 years old, but unfortunately, and try as I might, I can't remember what she said. They are not of any immediately recognisable members of my family. One of them may be a Kenneth Tuson, who married my Great Auntie Elsie Paddy. That is about all I can say. The gentleman on the bottom left appears to be wearing a Royal West Kent cap badge, which would tie into where we are all from (North West Kent/Surrey boarder).
There are two other photos of individuals who seem to be from this photo which I will also post here.
Many Thanks

Chris

[rewbarbel]

At a guess, I would say that your first photo dates from just after the end of WW1. The gent sitting on the right is wearing the cap badge for the ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS, a badge that was worn from 1919. I think that the gent in the second picture is the same man, but taken a bit earlier. He is wearing the ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS cap badge (pre 1919). I don't suppose the tally on the rating behind him is readable under a magnifying glass?

Regards,

Andy

[Drew-1918]

Thank you very much! I particularly wondered what his cap badge was.

Interesting what you say about the date, because I had wondered if the rating on the left had died on the Indefatigable in 1916. Obviously wrong there.

I will have to ask family re the magnifying glass, as I am in Japan with a scan, and the original is back home in England at present! I will post if I come up with anything. Thanks for you help.

Chris

[battiscombe]

the west kents soldier has overseas chevrons 4 +1 for full war service from 1914 - and may well be wearing his 1914 star ribbon ? [although not confirmable i think] - so an Old Contemptible

[Old Owl]

Hi Drew,

The group is definitely post WW1, the sailor on the left appears to be wearing the ribbon bar for the BWM and VM, as does the sailor on the right. The chap between them could be wearing a St John's Ambulance badge on his left arm--although the hat is rather strange!!

The soldier on the left is R.W.Kents and has 5 overseas service chevrons and probably the ribbon for the 1914 Star. The soldier on the right has 3 overseas service chevrons and wears the badge of the R.A.O.C., he also appears to wear the ribbon bar for the BWM and VM. The second photo shows the same man pre 1919 wearing the earlier A.O.C. badge.

I believe that the fireman may be a post WW1 photo? You will need an expert to identify his Brigade and medals.

Robert

[Drew-1918]

Thanks very much indeed everyone. Fantastic information, I am very intrigued. I will use all your information to try and find out more about the men, and post if I find anything of interest.

Thanks again.

[T8HANTS]

The chap with the very flat hat, is wearing a "lancer" style fireman’s tunic, but I would have expected the buttons to be silver or brass. Firemen did wear Broderick style flat caps, and I think the LFB kept theirs for some considerable time after they were given up by the military, although that is the flattest I have ever seen. The St. J. A. shoulder badge is correct for a trained first aider, and the round badge with 4 upon is often used as a station badge, so that would indicate he is part of a large town or city brigade with at least four sub stations.

The individual portrait I think shows he has become a "Station Officer", but I am not sure if that is the correct rank title for that period.

That’s my hunch anyway, we will all be corrected later.

G

[Drew-1918]

That's great! I was just trying to work out how to join a fire brigade forum as I didn't necessarily expect to get any info here. Thought it might be too specialist.

Thank you so much

[dlh4042]

Can't speak for ever fire brigade in the country at this time but in Newcastle Police and Fire Brigade pre and post WW1 the large number on the breast of the tunic referred to the individuals brigade number and not a station number. At this time there were only around 18 full time firemen, the rest being "fire bobbies" police constables who doubled up as firemen. The rank of station officer did exist at this time, in Newcastle anyway, though I am unsure as to whether the two silver epaulettes denoted this or a higher rank as I have seen photographs of men with just the one epaulette.

Hope this helps at all

[Drew-1918]

Thanks very much indeed. It certainly does help, though I am not an expert in WW1 in general, let alone the fire brigade at this period- so it is a little hard for me to understand all the points about the fireman.

The only other thing I remember my Nan saying, was that the gentleman in the fire brigade uniform may have committed suicide, and something about not getting over his brother's death in WW1. However, even she was a little unsure, as I remember.

Many thanks for your help,

Chris

[Hett65]

Chris

I agree with dlh4042 in that the number on the firemans tunic is his brigade number and not the station number. Attached is a photograph of Thomas Joseph Cuthbert Kavanagh of Newcastle upon Tyne City Police who joined the force in 1901 after service in the Royal Navy. His original police number was PC52B, he was then appointed as an auxiliary fireman in 1902, and appointed permanant fire brigade staff in 1903 when he was given the brigade number 10. He was acting station officer in 1910 and given the new number 7, which is worn on his tunic in the photograph. Prmoted station officer number 3 in 1914. Recalled to the colours in August 1914 and was killed when HMS Aboukir was torpedoed in the North Sea.

John

[David Ridgus]

Please could anyone help with any comments or advice on this group of soldiers and sailors (and a fireman?). I found it when going through my Nan's photos after she had died. She may have told me who the various people were at one point, when I was about 8 or 9 years old, but unfortunately, and try as I might, I can't remember what she said. They are not of any immediately recognisable members of my family. One of them may be a Kenneth Tuson, who married my Great Auntie Elsie Paddy. That is about all I can say. The gentleman on the bottom left appears to be wearing a Royal West Kent cap badge, which would tie into where we are all from (North West Kent/Surrey boarder).

There are two other photos of individuals who seem to be from this photo which I will also post here.

Many Thanks

Chris

Only just come across this thread so sorry if this has already been floated. Could the picture be of a man with his sons? There seems a strong resemblance across the nose and mouth. Perhaps a celebration that so many had come through unscathed, especially with such long service

David

[Drew-1918]

John

Thank you very much for all that explanation, and for including the photo, which helps me to understand it all. The points that dl4042 and yourself make are very interesting, and who knows, perhaps your details will help me to crack it one day. Thanks very much again.

David

Thanks very much for your thoughts. I agree with your suggestion that they look like a family group. It certainly looks like a proud father with his sons. The only name I had to go on was "Tuson", which I have currently discounted, as my relative down this line was Machine Gun Corps. Could also be the surname "Paddy", however, haven't been able to match these two family names with any of the units seen in the photo thus far.

The rating at the back on the right appears in another family photo of a wedding dated "16th Aug, 1947". He appears to be the father of the bride- 'Aunt Florrie' (other members of my family have no idea who this may be). I am aware that this is straying off a bit into the genealogical line, so will pursue it no further here, but will include a crop, just for those who may be interested.

I have a feeling that it may be by pursuing the fireman line of enquiry further that I will possibly come up with some answers. Thanks everyone for pushing this one along a little bit more.

Merry Christmas,

Chris

[Drew-1918]

Hello,

Just to say a big thank you again to everyone who helped me with advice on the soldiers and sailors pictured above. I think I am quite close to being able to identify who they are, but I just have one more query, and I would be very grateful for anyone's advice or opinions.

Looking at the Royal West Kent soldier on the left, and using a higher quality scan this time; is it certain that he has the 1914 red stripe on his arm? Its just that I find it a little hard to see now.

I realise from reading other threads on the GWF, that in old photos, red can come up quite dark and blue sometimes a bit lighter, and that this might account for why it is difficult to see the 1914 stripe, but I just wondered if it was possible that he has 4 blue stripes and no 1914 one at all. This would mean that he has a strange excess at the bottom of his four stripes. Is this possible? Perhaps an over large patch? I wonder if the stripes came separately, and could they then be sewn on to patches, and then on to the arm. I have seen various different examples in the internet, and they don't seem to settle it either way in my mind. Sometimes when I look at it I feel I can see the outline of a stripe, and at others it appears to be missing . Help please!

Many thanks for any help you may be able to provide,

Regards,

Chris

[Andrew Upton]

I realise from reading other threads on the GWF, that in old photos, red can come up quite dark and blue sometimes a bit lighter, and that this might account for why it is difficult to see the 1914 stripe, but I just wondered if it was possible that he has 4 blue stripes and no 1914 one at all. This would mean that he has a strange excess at the bottom of his four stripes. Is this possible? Perhaps an over large patch? I wonder if the stripes came separately, and could they then be sewn on to patches, and then on to the arm. I have seen various different examples in the internet, and they don't seem to settle it either way in my mind. Sometimes when I look at it I feel I can see the outline of a stripe, and at others it appears to be missing . Help please!

There is no doubt in my mind this is four blue stripes over a single red stripe for 1914, albeit the red stripe all but hidden due to the effect of the orthochromatic film. This would fit perfectly with him having the medal ribband up for either the 1914 or 1914-15 Star.

[TEW]

Chris,

I noticed the group picture was taken by Baker & Sons 187 Maple Road, Penge and that you were formerly from Bromley. Was the group photo found in Bromley? If the possible 'Station Officer' picture shows the Bromley station officer that would make finding his name easier from newspaper archives, especially if a suicide took place.

If (and it's a big if) the family stayed in Bromley and the Aug 1947 wedding took place there then there are 11 marriages involving a Florence in Bromley for that time and location. These 11 offer up 21 surnames and one may ring a bell with you. Someone may beat me to it but I can put up a list of those surnames later.

Before anyone asks why 11 weddings only produce 21 surnames it's because 2 Mr Woolfords married Florence's.

TEW

[TEW]

List of weddings of Florence ***** to anyone else Aug 1947 in Bromley, bride and grooms' surnames. Any names jump out!!

TEW

Dunmall

Sparey

Whitehead

Humphrey

Charlton

Judd

Spickett

King

West

Haward

Walker

Woolford

Warrick

Rosan

Vaile

Wells

Bolge

Greasby

Carrington

Trowel

Pink

[Drew-1918]

Andrew,

Thanks very much indeed for such an assured answer. It helps a lot. I thought it might be someone who arrived in April 1915, but that looks like it's wrong now. I will have to do a bit of looking through the RWK medal rolls! I think the RWK soldier is a either a cousin, brother-in-law or family friend. If it is the latter, it could be quite difficult to identify him.

TEW,

Thanks a lot for taking the trouble to have a think about my query and looking up those names. I thought the same thing as you, and searched around Croydon & Bromley marriages (my lot could never decide if they were Surrey or Kent!). I couldn't find anything that would fit. Then it occurred to me that the lady in the picture might not be a Florence, but rather that the photo was addressed as a present to a Florence. It then occurred to me that a great grandmother was a Florence Goodman. This is a side of my family that I know virtually nothing about, hence why it didn't occur to me. I had never been shown any photos of them before. Apologies there. I believe that most of them are all Goodman brothers. I'll get my info together and post that here in a sec...

Many thanks to you both,

Chris

[Drew-1918]

Who I believe most of the people in this photo to be. My thanks again to those above who provided me with so many details. I would not have been able to work it out otherwise.

TEW, I think the marriage was for Eileen M. Goodman (daughter of Albert J. Goodman pictured), to a Edward J. Vosper, 3rd Qtr 1947, Bromley. My thanks again for your time and effort.

Chris