The "best" bayonets of the great war

[Khaki]

I think in terms of best, that the German 84/98 and the British 1903 were probably the most practical, its a shame that the Enfield 03' didn't survive as did the German. Perhaps if the designers had gotten over the 'Napoleonic' image of infantry dueling with mounted troopers it would have. For sheer 'scary' looks the German 'butcher' blade and the British 07 pattern have it all. I doubt if the sawtooth variations of blades were ever worth manufacturing.

for your thoughts

khaki

[jscott]

Apparently the French Lebel bayonet was highly regarded by both French and German soldiers - light, long and shaped to create an open wound.

[Kevin O'Marah]

In my view the best bayonet was the one that belonged to the soldier with the greater inent and will to survive.

[free1954]

the sawtooths were made to use as a saw. and they were very good at that. when I was a kid and before I knew better, I used a german sawtooth bayonet a lot to cut branches and shrubs.

[Gunner Bailey]

A couple of years ago I met a man whose father got into a bayonet fight in North Africa in WW2. The German had a WW1 sawback bayonet. The german was killed (SMLE / 1907 bayonet) but the man's father was wounded in the leg by the sawback. The wound was so bad he was invaided out of the army 3 months later and suffered pain in the leg for the rest of his life. So even by wounding, the sawback took a man out of the war.

John

[Steven Broomfield]

And, in a way, John, was better than killing him as he would have tied-up other blokes helping him, hospital and recuperation time, etc, etc.

[shippingsteel]

For my money the "best" bayonet of the war has to be the best designed to do the job - sturdy and strong with good penetration, no modification required.

So this rules out many of the most common contenders, which all had design faults ... many of which required modification to enhance their effectiveness.

The P1907 was too long and unwieldy, it would bend easily along the blade, and the muzzle ring would often be distorted after extra leverage was exerted.

Likewise the German S98/05 butcher bayonet lacked penetration at the point which was too broad, requiring a sharp false edge to be ground along the top.

So my nomination is the old Patt. 88 (closely followed by the P'03) on the basis of length, strength and penetration ... being double edged with a sharp point.

It also has a much stronger attachment system utilising the Rigby nosecap on the MLE. I have seen many damaged P07's, some P03's but very few Patt.88s.

Cheers, S>S

[Iain]

In my view the best bayonet was the one that belonged to the soldier with the greater inent and will to survive.

I concur...........MOST AGGRESSIVE AND WILLING TO INFLICT VIOLENCE ...will invariably conquer.

[Gunner Bailey]

And, in a way, John, was better than killing him as he would have tied-up other blokes helping him, hospital and recuperation time, etc, etc.

Yes Steve. That's the modern way of thinking. John

[Thunderbox]

If we accept that bayonets were actually improved in design through trials and combat experience, it must be assumed that the 1907 replaced the 1903 for good reason of combat efficiency.

The knife-blade bayonet with blood grooves and reverse-edge tip (bowie blade) is currently considered the optimum bayonet, hence the 1907 was an incremental improvement over 1903, and was iitself replaced by a shortened and improved version in time - the bladed bayonets of the No4 and L1A1.

The bend-ability and relative unwieldiness of the 1907 was of course an accident of design necessity - the need to make the blade longer to compensate for the shorter rifle. If they'd kept the 1903, they'd have had to extend the blade of that too.

I'm not sure that the length of the 1907 was any sort of disadvantage. If you read some of the trench-fighting memoires such as McBrides "A Rifleman went to War", the 1907 was used unmounted as their primary trench-raiding weapon because of its handiness as a short sword.

[Gunner Bailey]

It was thought the 1888 / 1903 was too short to tackle a mounted cavalryman hence the extra length of the 1907. However as the Germans had long bayonets as well, then the 1907 equalised things a bit.

The No 4 was probably the worst British bayonet of all time. The only one an opponent could safely grab hold of in a fight.

John

[calibre792x57.y]

Going off piste but the No. 4 spikes were accepted for service after long trials and they were designed as efficient killing weapons which had a minimum effect on the use of the rifle. The bit they did not consider was that very few soldiers are actually killed with bayonets; it is the morale effect of seeing the opposition advancing with cold steel that really decides matters. When No. 4 bayonets were first issued in the Far East a Lt. Col commented that the Japanese despite their worship of the sword would generally break and run in the face of bayonets, but they did not do so with the No. 4 Spike. Seemingly as they couldn't see the blades it did not have the morale effect of a sword bayonet. As to bayonet design always improving I have to point out that there were cases in the Falklands of the L.1A bayonets breaking when used against thickly clad Argentinians. Finally I knew an old soldier who had some experience of close quarter fighting (Longstop Hill) who told me that no-one got killed with a bayonet unless he had his hands up first! - SW

[shippingsteel]

Yes, as often happens the original design most times turns out to be the best. The P1907 for the SMLE was not an improvement but a compromise solely about 'reach'.

In the original trials to equip the SMLE with a bayonet, the P'03 had won out based on so-called combat efficiency - "the short blade permitted more accurate shooting".

It must be remembered that the P'03 is virtually identical to the Patt.88 ... the sole difference being the pommel and manner of attachment to rifle, the blade is the same.

When it came to the P1907 the tactical theory was that the extra 'reach' was required to deal with mounted enemy horsemen. Obviously this turned out a false doctrine.!

Cheers, S>S

[Stoppage Drill]

The fuller on a knife blade is not a "blood groove." It is simply a design feature which allows a reduction in weight of about 25% without any loss of strength.

I would say that the No 4 bayonet is not the only one that can be grabbed - the same is true of any spike bayonet I suppose. I have a No 4 rifle with the Mk2 bayonet, and an Enfield Martini with the pattern 1895 bayonet. The first and the last of the .303 British service rifles.

The P1895 bayonet is no more than a conversion of the 1876 Martini Henry bayonet modified for the smaller diameter Enfield barrel, and it is of a curved triangular section, safe to grab. The angles are not sharp and will not cut into a clasping hand..

In his famous 1936 radio broadcast, Lt Col Frank Bourne OBE DCM (the famous Colour Sergeant Bourne) mentioned how Zulus showed their fearlessness at Rorke's Drift by trying to leap the mealie bag parapet and grabbing the British bayonets, which were the 1876 spike pattern.

For any bayonet afficionadi, my 1895 is the "Egyptian conversion" which still mounts to the right of the barrel.

[Radlad]

Best for what? As a multi purpose tool ( cutting forage, removing foliage, cutting firewood, digging scrapes, opening food tins etc) probably the German 98/05. It isn't brilliant as a stabbing weapon but I can imagine it being used effectively on it's own in trench raids.

As a killing tool, probably the Lebel.

[4thGordons]

I must admit I do not really see the point (pun intended) of threads of this nature....

but I tell you what:

I'll challenge anyone to stand in front of me when I am holding one of my No4 rifles with a spike bayonet on it and then defend themselves by grabbing it..... just to show me how easy it is.

If I am silly enough to swing it from side to side you may have a chance

but if I use it as intended as a stabbing weapon -- just like the Lebel "Rosalie" (the original No4 spikes were also cruciform) or even the Zulu Iklwa these were designed as thrusting weapons and grabbing a point moving in a straight line towards you is not to be taken lightly

Chris

[Khaki]

I am sorry that you don't see the point of the thread, apart from academic amusement, it's to illustrate by evaluation that all new developments are not always for the better. Also that iconic blades such as the 1907 British and the 98/05 German are not necessarily as good as what we grew up hearing.

khaki

[Cnock]

when the French introduced the Lebel rifle and bayonet, the Germans wanted to have a rifle + bayonet as long as the French, that's why they made the long mod. 98 bayonet

these long and small blade bayonets tented to break when entering a body, that is why the Germans changed to the 98/05 bayonet with wider blade

Cnock

[calibre792x57.y]

Hi, Cnock. I am surprised that you didn't vote for the Belgian Mle 1889 as the best bayonet. Here you have a sturdy single edged ten-inch blade with a spear point, a stout crossguard which defends the hand when it is used as a dagger and a large comfortable grip. The length of the blade is sufficient to engage and kill any opponent. - SW

[Whitedog]

_{I think that the British Pattern 1903 bayonet, like the Pattern 1888, is a superior bayonet design due to its practical length and the manner that it is mounted close to and more in line with the rifle's barrel. All of that aside, my Favorite bayonet is the U.S. Model 1905 bayonet with the 16" blade made for the Model 1903 Springfield rifle.}

_Fred

[Khaki]

Hi there Fred,

I agree with your observations, I wish they had done a better job with the 1905 Springfield scabbard though.

regards

khaki

[Whitedog]

Yes, the M1905 scabbard was certainly prone to wear and tear due to its all leather cover. I do think that the M1910 scabbard was pretty good though because except for the tip or the Drag, it didn't have a lot of leather that would've rotted. A medal scabbard would've dented easy while the wood, rawhide and canvas scabbard withstood hits better. It would also get wet and then dry out without cracking or tearing or rusting. Of course I'm probably not thinking of any deficiencies that the 1910 might've had. I'm open to learning though! lol.

[Khaki]

I am sure that the US 1905 scabbard fulfilled the requirements of the day, but looking at it from a collecting point of view, I very seldom see British 07 bayonet scabbards that are in the last stages of corruption, likewise the US M17 scabbards remain intact. I do however see many of the 05 scabbards with dog eared leather tips and shrunken canvas pulling away from the ends.

khaki

[Whitedog]

The canvas scabbard with the leather tip is the M1910 scabbard. It replaced the M1905 scabbard which had the all leather outer casing with the Krag bayonet type hanger. These were for the most part updated to have the M1910 wire belt hanger However, yes, I agree with you in that the seams on the leather tips of many of the M1910 scabbards seen today are opened up from the stitching giving out and many of them have shrunken webbing covers that are unsightly. That's interesting in that all one has to do is stretch the material back again with a technique that was supposed to be used by the soldier if this ever started happening. I tried it myself on such a scabbard yesterday that had pulled back over 3/4 inches from the scabbard throat, and it worked. Using your thumbs and index fingers of both hands, place the bayonet and scabbard upside down with the pommel of the bayonet resting on your thigh or better yet on a wooden table, take your encircling fingers and with a pulling motion, slide them from the edge of the leather tip all the way down the length of the canvas cover, pulling and stretching the material with them each time. This technique, when repeated for awhile, will pull the material back up the length of the scabbard again. You don't have to wet the material first to stretch it. Actually, wetting the outer fabric seems to made the webbing swell up with water and resist stretching. try it. I was surprised that it worked so quickly and so well yesterday!

[Khaki]

Sorry for my error in confusing the 1905 with the 1910, I was thinking of the 1910, actually I have seen the 1905's in better shape than a lot of the 1910's, (service length?) however I found the advice on stretching the canvas very interesting, if not a little bit scary, I would have thought the likelihood of it tearing would have been too risky to try.

Well done !

khaki