once missing, how long before you were classed as KIA

[paul leighton]

if you was classed as missing or presumed KIA how long was it before someone listed you as dead, with the added problem of bodys not recovered

[johnboy]

I am not sure but I think you would be classed as missing when you failed to turn up at the next roll call.

Presumed killed in action is a harder one. Some time after the action the mopping up might have been done and a body identified. Probably then listed as KIA. If no body was found I suppose there had to be a wait in case he was a POW. In most cases I would think that the type of action would determine the likelihood of POW.

[Derek Black]

In my local newspaper it is often the case a man was declared dead for official purposes a year to the day after he was posted "missing" if no further information came about regarding him.

Edited 9 October , 2013 by Derek Black

[Old Owl]

I believe that normally it was circa 12 months from the time the man was reported missing, but this can vary depending upon information received in the interim. Sometimes remains were found when searching the area within a few months, and on occasion remains with identification are still being found today.

Rule of thumb would be 12 months, unless there was reason to believe that he may be a POW.

[AllenRSmith]

Hi,

My great grandfathers brother David Smith was reported missing on the 11th November 1914 (turns out he was shot through the neck and cheek and taken prisoner), he was officially concluded to have died on or since the 15th of November 1414 in May 1916 according to the Aberdeen Journal of 25th May 1916. so in this case 18months from going missing to being listed as dead.

Allen

[paul leighton]

thanks for the help

cheers

[Khaki]

Isn't there a difference between the civil authorities official pronouncement of 'dead' and the army KIA and MIA, I think at a roll call if a death had been witnessed a KIA would be entered on the roll or if there was no response to the name being read out a MIA might be entered later to be changed presumed killed/dead after enquiries. I don't know for sure but technically speaking the MIA presumed killed must still stand in a lot of cases. The civil declaration of death is a separate matter done to allow the next of kin to proceed with the legal requirements of winding up an estate etc.

khaki

[the-5th-kings]

Hi

My g-grandad was reported missing on the 20/09/17 and then repored killed 27/10/17. This is only 5 weeks.

He is on the wall in Tyne-cot and has no know grave so it looks like no body was found unless he was found then later the grave was lost.

I would be very greatful for any help with this.

Thank you

Colin

[Derek Black]

Possibly men missing in a battle are reported presumed killed withing a few weeks or months once checks are made regarding hospitals and POW status, whereas a man that disappeared in less obvious circumstances, ie. shell fire in own lines with no body left to identify, or the date he was first noticed missing is less clear, then perhaps that's why a year is given to declare them dead?

Just thinking aloud.

[Perth Digger]

I've seen War Office letters to relatives of the missing saying that they would wait six months before seeking agreement from the relatives officially to pronounce a soldier dead. This gave time for POW reports to arrive from Germany; for bodies to be found in subsequent clearances of battlefields; and for the Red Cross to make enquiries in hospitals etc. The War Office regularly (weekly or monthly, I can't remember) gave a full list of those officially missing to the Red Cross. From mid-1915 information on all those missing was automatically sought by the Red Cross, whether relatives asked or not (this may apply only to officers, however). After all lines of enquiry were exhausted and after at least six months (usually a bit longer), the Casualties Department would ask relatives if they had had any private information on the missing person and, if not, whether they were prepared to accept notice of death. If they were not willing, the War Office did nothing except at a later date ask again. A lot of the missing were thus not officially declared dead until the spring of 1919, as relatives waited to see if the victims had returned from POW camps. The War Office would never declare a person dead if the relatives objected. I know of one case where the parents never accepted their son's death and it was not until 2001 that he was eventually mentioned on the Thiepval Memorial, the last parent having died in the 1950s.

Mike

[kenora]

My Great Uncle Jim was killed at Passchendaele on 10th November 1917. The official Missing notice was dated 3rd December and the official Killed in action notice 6th February 1918, just over two months later. No remains found. In the meantime the Red Cross searched the German prisoner of war lists and found nothing and his Company's OC wrote his Mother to confirm that all of the wounded were brought in after the battle and Jim was not among them - and that no prisoners were taken. However his death certificate did not issue until August 1919.

Shane

[Drew-1918]

My Great Uncle Jim was killed at Passchendaele on 10th November 1917. The official Missing notice was dated 3rd December and the official Killed in action notice 6th February 1918, just over two months later. No remains found. In the meantime the Red Cross searched the German prisoner of war lists and found nothing and his Company's OC wrote his Mother to confirm that all of the wounded were brought in after the battle and Jim was not among them - and that no prisoners were taken. However his death certificate did not issue until August 1919.

Shane

A very interested thread.

Shane,

I hope you don't mind me asking, but I just wondered; how did you know that your Great uncle Jim's death certificate was issued in August 1919? I have a copy of my Great Uncle's certificate, but it merely says the date he was killed, and I can find no information about when it was issued, though I'd dearly like to know.

[kenora]

I have the original death certificate. It notes that he was killed in action on 10th November 1917 and it is signed August 18th 1919 at Militia HQ Ottawa. . Maybe the Canadian Expeditionary Force certificates were more informative than BEF certificates!.

It doesn't make any sense to me why it took 18 months after the official KIA notice to issue the death cert. Maybe it was just the backlog - after Passchendaele in particular, it must have been pretty long....

Shane

[Drew-1918]

Thanks for getting back to me Shane. I see what you mean, it does seem a very long time, since there was official KIA notice. As you say, possibly a backlog. Perhaps moving through many different channels from Europe back to Canada!

[Nick Thornicroft]

I have recently been researching a number of officers who died on the Somme in early July, 1916. Enquiries were set up for those seen to fall in action, as well as those who 'went on ahead and were not heard of again'. The testimonies of fellow officers were apparently the most reliable sources of information, but interestingly, the eye-witness accounts of men in the ranks who saw a particular officer 'shot through the head' or 'killed by a shell' were not always considered reliable enough to provide conclusive evidence. If a body was found & identified by comrades &/or his ID disc, then obviously their families were informed straight away, but as has been discussed earlier, for those 'missing' it could take well over a year to establish that he was not wounded & a prisoner of the Germans rather than officially killed on the day he was last seen going into action. Several letters from the War Office sent to anxious relatives waiting for news stress several factors in the delay of finding out specific information, including the large number of enquiries received after a major battle, the inevitably slow process of checking Red Cross Hospitals for lists of wounded & captured soldiers, & that the role of fellow officers during an attack was not to monitor the fate of their comrades but to press home the assault until its completion.

[johnboy]

There is also the chance of a wrong date of death. A soldier could have been wounded , become detached from his unit and maybe crawled into a crater and died some days later. The date of death would probably be given as the date of the action.

[gmslewis]

My great uncle Fred was missing in action in March 1918 and his parents were formally told he was presumed dead a year later so my guess would be that if there was no evidence to prove either way he was alive or dead it would be twelve months.

Oddly enough Fred's grandad was buried in the same week in 1919 so a tough time for the family.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

In the case of the German Army, many of thr missing were officially declared dead in the early 1920's to the early 1930's after an inquiry into the lack of any reports of the man being received by the family, the local town government, etc.

Ralph

[bushfighter]

In East Africa a regimental board of enquiry would be held after a reasonable length of time (3 - 6 months) and the members would look at the facts concerning the MIA incident and decide whether the soldier was in fact KIA.

Harry

[kenora]

I have recently been researching a number of officers who died on the Somme in early July, 1916. Enquiries were set up for those seen to fall in action, as well as those who 'went on ahead and were not heard of again'. The testimonies of fellow officers were apparently the most reliable sources of information, but interestingly, the eye-witness accounts of men in the ranks who saw a particular officer 'shot through the head' or 'killed by a shell' were not always considered reliable enough to provide conclusive evidence. If a body was found & identified by comrades &/or his ID disc, then obviously their families were informed straight away, but as has been discussed earlier, for those 'missing' it could take well over a year to establish that he was not wounded & a prisoner of the Germans rather than officially killed on the day he was last seen going into action. Several letters from the War Office sent to anxious relatives waiting for news stress several factors in the delay of finding out specific information, including the large number of enquiries received after a major battle, the inevitably slow process of checking Red Cross Hospitals for lists of wounded & captured soldiers, & that the role of fellow officers during an attack was not to monitor the fate of their comrades but to press home the assault until its completion.

That's very interesting. In my Great Uncle's case, his parents were sent a Red Cross report with a recollection from a comrade who was beside him from the beginning of the advance at Passchendaele. This soldier says that they were overtaking their own barrage and had to take cover in shell holes. When he got out to carry on he saw a shell light right in the hole where my Great Uncle had been. He assumed he was killed as he never saw him again. However another comrade later wrote his mother disputing that account, saying he had spoken to other men who saw my Great Uncle at the objective line talking to a certain Sergeant. This account was sent to the Canadian War Office but they issued a KIA notice relatively soon after that based, I think, on reports from Officers that all of the wounded were brought in soon after the battle and identified (in so far as they could have been) and that no prisoners were taken.

Our conclusion has always been that on the balance of probabilities he was killed by a German shell at the objective line.

Shane

[Guest Pete Connnor]

Based on what I have seen in the Australian and New Zealand personnel records (and since they are modeled on the British Army, presumably they followed British procedures...) if an officer saw you killed, but no body was recovered, then that was enough for someone to be posted as killed in action. If someone in the ranks saw someone killed, and no body was recovered, then they would be posted as missing in action. For those posted as missing, the military authorities would start collecting evidence to the fate of the individual. Those with information about an individual's fate, but no longer with the unit (say in hospital), would be interviewed by an officer. As noted by others, there would be a period of grace to see if any death or prisoner of war information would come from German authorities (this seems to have normally occurred in the 1-2 month time frame). It seems relatively common for individuals to have been seen in the medical system by someone, causing military authorities to conduct an investigation to see if there was anything to it. The one thing that struck me is that many of the witness statements are vague as to identity (as in they would give a brief physical description, and these could vary widely) and I felt that there was a reasonable probability that a good number were cases of mistaken identity by men under high amounts of stress. The final step was for a Board of Enquiry of three officers to review the evidence, hear from any witnesses still with the unit, and pass judgement on the fate of an individual. The timing of the Board occurred in quiet periods for the unit (so while out of the line resting for a period of time) so the Board could sit for two or three days to go through a number of cases and I assume there was appropriate officers available. So there was no fixed period, but just happened when it could happen. For example, a lot of the missing at Gallipoli were posted as killed in action in January/February 1916 as that was the first time Australian and New Zealand units could convene a Board of Enquiry. On the Western Front the Board of Enquiry seems to have happened somewhere around the six month mark on average (caveat: never worked out that time frame, just an impression).

[CoyoteJ]

I have been researching, with the valued help of others on TGWF, an RAMC Capt. (Alexander E. G. Fraser) who was reported MIA in the Manchester Courier of 17th Oct 1914 but evidently reported with the wrong initials (A. D. instead of A. E. G.).

The Manchester Courier issued a correction on the 11^th Nov. 1914

Correction: Officer missing on Oct.17th: Fraser, A.D. RAMC. Should read:

CAPT. S.(sic) E.G. FRASER RAMC

This is presumed to be Alexander E.G. Fraser RAMC who was definitely a POW repatriated to GB in 1915.

So even the correction appears to be in error giving S. instead of A. It seems that under the circumstances (and see above posting) mistakes in identification even with the living/prisoners are perhaps understandable and perhaps compounded if the information is being relayed through a third party? Were the Red Cross involved in relaying the information on PoWs and those who died whilst in their hands, from the German authorities?