Is there any way of finding out embarkment dates of drafts for 1/6 Glo

[Zeli]

This may be a ridiculous question but I'm going to ask anyway.

I have a soldier, part of the 1/6 Gloucestershire regiment who was not part of the first embarkment to France at end of March 1915.

He joined the 1/6 after Dec 30 1915 - no Star medal!

And was KIA on April 24th 1917 in the vicinity of Tombois Farm.

His formal will was dated July 9th 1961 (I presume this is a mistake and it was actually 1916).

I believe the will is a W3297 form, it is curiously headed W3298 (I also presume this is a mistake).

As I have been led to believe that soldiers were encouraged to fill in the W3297 before embarkment/active service, I think he must have left for France about July 9th 1916.

The question is - is there any way of confirming this? Are there records of boats leaving with soldiers?

Is there anywhere I can look to pinpoint more information?

As far as I can determine - no service records exist.

Charles Daniel Pates 1/6 Gloucestershire Regiment. 5314 later 266959

Thanks

P.S. I think two soldiers that fought alongside him were William George Bond and Samuel Tiley but have found no service papers for these soldiers either.

Any information about how embarkment worked for drafts joining regiments would be interesting. Did the boats contain a mixture of soldiers destined for different regiments etc? Just to add to the general knowledge of how things worked. Thanks.

[sotonmate]

War Diary is likely to have entries for draft arrivals,some are more detailed than others and may have names,but usually just the numbers of troops arrived plus any (named) officers. Kew file reference is WO95/2758/2,but not yet digital.

Cross-channel boats didn't have name-detailed manifests,it seemed that they sailed regularly,more than once a day on the short routes,and carried whatever was to hand at sailing time !

[PPCLI]

The WO 364 file of a similarly numbered man survives (see summary below). Private Peachey's enlistment date suggests that Charles Daniel Pates is unlikely to have embarked for France earlier than July 1916, so the date of his will is probably the earliest date of embarkation. It may have been the date on which men were warned that they were to be part of a draft soon to be going to France.

Charles Wilfred Peachey

5325/266968 Gloucestershire Regiment

Enlisted 21/03/1916, 3/6th Battalion

Embarked Southampton 29/07/1916

Disembarked Rouen 30/07/1916

Joined unit in the field 07/08/1916 (correct I think but very feint, possibly 2nd)

It isn't clear from this file whether he joined the 1/6th or 2/6th Bn.

It is perhaps worth doing a proper search of similarly numbered men each side of 5314/266959 (say from 5250 to 5300) on both WO 363 and WO 364 on Ancestry.

All the best,

Stuart

[Zeli]

Thank you both.

The search of WO 363/364 seems a good idea. Be interesting to see if men with similar numbers end up embarking together.

Would love the 1/6th to be digitised.

It is really good that so many records are becoming accessible online. I could never get to Kew.

Thanks again.

[sotonmate]

I'll see what I can do at Kew in a week or so.

[Zeli]

I'll see what I can do at Kew in a week or so.

That is over and above... thank you.

[simon2]

Charles Daniel Pates 1/6 Gloucestershire Regiment. 5314 later 266959

I would put an enlistment date for this man too approx mid march 1916.

William Bond served in the 1/5th Battalion and Samuel Tiley indeed served in the 1/6th.

Charles Wilfred Peachey

It isn't clear from this file whether he joined the 1/6th or 2/6th Bn.

This man served in the 1/6th Battalion.

Most war diaries I have looked at only list the date of a draft's arrival and usually the ratio of Officers and

Other Ranks. On occasion the arrival is not listed at all and sometimes the Officers are mentioned by name.

I have only got fragmented pages of the 1/6th diary and can tell you that the only listed arrival of draftee's

in July 1916 was on the 24th. This consisted of 129 Other Ranks and 8 Officers from the 1/8th Worcesters.

There is no listed arrival in Aug.

[Zeli]

Thank you simon2

Do you mind if I ask further questions to try and improve my reasoning for future investigations?

I have been working on a web site I want to get up for the Centenary in honour of the men of my past family who served during WW1 and I want to try and do more than name and number.

I would put an enlistment date for this man too approx mid march 1916.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is your reasoning for this because there were a lot of enlistments mid-march?

William Bond served in the 1/5th Battalion and Samuel Tiley indeed served in the 1/6th.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you derived this from information available online that I have missed or is this personal records? I ask because I don't want to have to take up other people's time in future with questions that I should be able to answer myself?

Most war diaries I have looked at only list the date of a draft's arrival and usually the ratio of Officers and

Other Ranks. On occasion the arrival is not listed at all and sometimes the Officers are mentioned by name.

I have only got fragmented pages of the 1/6th diary and can tell you that the only listed arrival of draftee's

in July 1916 was on the 24th. This consisted of 129 Other Ranks and 8 Officers from the 1/8th Worcesters.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean there was a transfer of these number from the 1/8 Worcesters or just the Officers were from the 1/8 Worcesters?

There is no listed arrival in Aug.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is interesting because we know that Charles Peachey did join the field in August.

[Zeli]

Just had a thought.

C D Pates initial number (5314) suggests he joined up between March and May 1916. How many weeks training did the men typically receive during this period of the war?

Just wondering if he left immediately after training - the Somme Battles were occurring in July and the 1/6 were there - maybe sent in as part of the reinforcements?

[SteveE]

Charles Wilfred Peachey

5325/266968 Gloucestershire Regiment

Enlisted 21/03/1916, 3/6th Battalion

Embarked Southampton 29/07/1916

Disembarked Rouen 30/07/1916

Joined unit in the field 07/08/1916 (correct I think but very feint, possibly 2nd)

Just to back up what Stuart has already stated there is another record (William Thomas Marsh #5313/#266958) in WO363 which again shows a similar pattern.

5313/266958 Gloucestershire Regiment

Attested 11/12/1915

To Army Reserve 12/12/1915

Mobilised and Posted 22/03/1916, 3/6th Battalion

Embarked Southampton 29/07/1916

Disembarked Rouen 30/07/1916

Joined Base Depot Rouen 30/07/1916

Joined unit in the field 07/08/1916, again it is unclear which unit he joined 'in the field'.

Regards

Steve

[simon2]

The draft arriving in Jul 1916 was 294 OR's and only the 8 Officers were from the Worcesters.

The lowest number of draftees arriving I have come across so far is 11.

I believe at this time in 1916 the training lasted about 3 months. This is not definitive as a lot men were required to

bolster the ranks of existing units. I am certain there was a set training schedule set out by the Army which some would

have tried to stick too but the length of time may have been shorter. This training was to get a man to an adequate

standard in drill, physical training and weapons. When a soldier joined his allocated unit overseas the training

was always ongoing.

Don't forget the 1/6th had already been overseas for a year before Charles joined them. Within this time there would

have been losses and in July 1916 their ranks were at least 194 short according to the war diary.

I cannot give detailed answers for other regiments and I am still learning the ins and outs of the Glosters. If you have any

other family members in the Glosters or any regiment I would start with a look at the Regimental Museum. They are usually

a treasure chest of information. The Glosters for example have a soldier search which can give you a few additional bits

of info that you may not have;- e.g. Charles Daniel Pates , born in Gloucester, enlisted in Bristol and was in 'A' Company

of the 1/6th Battalion. The archivist at the Glosters may have extra info on his system which is not on their soldier search.

A phone call or a visit is worthwhile and they have all the battalion war diaries. Then I would look at the usual MIC,

service / pension records, medal rolls, SWB rolls (if qualified), Local papers, local history archives / publications, local

churches, war memorials and census records are all worth investigating.

Do you have a photo of Daniel's headstone ?

[Zeli]

Just to back up what Stuart has already stated there is another record (William Thomas Marsh #5313/#266958) in WO363 which again shows a similar pattern.

5313/266958 Gloucestershire Regiment

Attested 11/12/1915

To Army Reserve 12/12/1915

Mobilised and Posted 22/03/1916, 3/6th Battalion

Embarked Southampton 29/07/1916

Disembarked Rouen 30/07/1916

Joined Base Depot Rouen 30/07/1916

Joined unit in the field 07/08/1916, again it is unclear which unit he joined 'in the field'.

Regards

Steve

This is great.

I have been trying to pursue this line of investigation myself.

I have come up with loads of MIC records with similar numberings (initial and later numberings) - all in the Glosters - but fail to find pension records or service records for any of the men.

E.g

Henry ingram 5331/266973

Herbert J Spragg 5333/266974

L. Corp. Ernest T Hastings 5336/266976

Frederick G Palser 5337/266979

I must be doing something wrong on the search for drafts/pensions. I found the Charles Peachey records but could not find the William Marsh records.

The Frederick Palsey, I mentioned, died of wounds on April 30th.

My man, Charles Pates was KIA on April 24th.

I will keep trying.

[Zeli]

The draft arriving in Jul 1916 was 294 OR's and only the 8 Officers were from the Worcesters.

The lowest number of draftees arriving I have come across so far is 11.

I believe at this time in 1916 the training lasted about 3 months. This is not definitive as a lot men were required to

bolster the ranks of existing units. I am certain there was a set training schedule set out by the Army which some would

have tried to stick too but the length of time may have been shorter. This training was to get a man to an adequate

standard in drill, physical training and weapons. When a soldier joined his allocated unit overseas the training

was always ongoing.

Don't forget the 1/6th had already been overseas for a year before Charles joined them. Within this time there would

have been losses and in July 1916 their ranks were at least 194 short according to the war diary.

I cannot give detailed answers for other regiments and I am still learning the ins and outs of the Glosters. If you have any

other family members in the Glosters or any regiment I would start with a look at the Regimental Museum. They are usually

a treasure chest of information. The Glosters for example have a soldier search which can give you a few additional bits

of info that you may not have;- e.g. Charles Daniel Pates , born in Gloucester, enlisted in Bristol and was in 'A' Company

of the 1/6th Battalion. The archivist at the Glosters may have extra info on his system which is not on their soldier search.

A phone call or a visit is worthwhile and they have all the battalion war diaries. Then I would look at the usual MIC,

service / pension records, medal rolls, SWB rolls (if qualified), Local papers, local history archives / publications, local

churches, war memorials and census records are all worth investigating.

Do you have a photo of Daniel's headstone ?

Yes, I do have a photo of the headstone and a photo of Charles. Same for his brother, also KIA, Arthur Pates (8th Service battalion). I haven't started work on Arthur yet.

I did not know that Charles was in A Company. That is very interesting. I did know the rest of the details - Charles is a cousin (x3 removed).

I should get myself over to the museum asap.

[simon2]

I would give the museum a ring first and speak to the archivist. The museum is definatly worth a visit anyway if

you are in the area.

You have the headstone photos but do you have a photo of their names on the Gloucester War Memorial ?

[Zeli]

I would give the museum a ring first and speak to the archivist. The museum is definatly worth a visit anyway if

you are in the area.

You have the headstone photos but do you have a photo of their names on the Gloucester War Memorial ?

Not yet. It is on my list of to do's.

[simon2]

[Zeli]

Crossed off my list of to dos.

Thanks.